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Discussion in 'Range Report' started by 25-5, Nov 23, 2012.
I have not seen this comparison before. No matter the theories, I don't want to catch any of them.
i have seen some similar before. shows the expanded diameter isn't as great as many would think. and if you put up the penetration comparison, there isn't as huge a difference in depth when using the same type of bullet in all the calibers tested.
makes me not be as concerned if i decide on using a 9mm vs. a 45!
Look like Winchester SXT projectiles.
I doubt the human body knows the difference either. Those big bullets are comforting ... but so are more bullets in the magazine.
You do realize that a .45 doesn't actually hit with a much larger amount if energy than a 9 mm, right? A 115 gr 9mm bullet makes 395-420 ft/lbs of energy and a 230gr .45 round makes 414-425 ft/lbs.
And when you deal with body armor a bullet with a smaller frontal cross section would have a better chance for penetration. But really if you throw body armor on the equation it's really going to take a rifle or shots in unarmored locations to work.
Really most handgun rounds suck.
40mm lol darn Leo's towing 40 mm bofors with there cruisers Crime rate drops to zero great idea
Bullets like your picture mean nothing. I have several bullets that have been recovered in real world situations. Albeit all but one is a rifle bullet but expansion is not EVER like the tests shot in gel. When a bullet hits bone it expands way different than what is shown in magazine pics and studies. Here are 5 .270 bullets, 3 .308s, one of which tumbled after hitting a limb, one .45 acp dug from the neck of a deer, and a muzzleloader bullet .45 caliber. As you can see good expansion but not perfect like shot into gel. The .45 auto was winchester sxt and some expansion. Worked though because he was shot in the neck. Range was 8ft. The muzzleloader slug was the greatest expansion I have ever seen. Maybe we need to carry the ole smokepole for self defense. LOL
Also the wound channel in tissue is much different then in gel. Pictures of those wound channels tell more then the expanded bullet themselves.
I'm just going to say that .45 is still the biggest.
I was commenting specifically on the thought that a .45 was going to knock a person wearing body armor "on their azz". The physics just doesn't work out that way. No pistol round is going to knock a person weighing over 100 lbs down unless it would also knock the shooter down.
Handgun bullets work on stopping people by either hitting the central nervous system or through blood loss. On that second point you could have a valid reason to select a larger bullet, but the diameter of the bullet isn't the only factor contributing to blood loss.
So, I hope you didn't take the point I was trying to make as something more than the fact that a .45 will not knock someone down espescially if it doesn't make it's way into the body. It may make them think twice about what their doing, but if it would, then most other handguns delivering similar energy would as well. If a body armor clad badguy does fall over from a pistol shot it is probably from fear, not physics.
I carry .45s and 9mms interchangeably.
sad to say, but if you think going from a 9mm to a 45 on a guy wearing body armour is going to give you a bigger advantage, you might end up dead. most body armour is rated for much higher than a 45 acp. what stops a BG is blood loss or a hit that takes out the central nervous system. even if the BG goes to the ground, from a hit from a 45, if he were wearing body armour, he is still a very huge danger. in other words you may have slowed him down, but you have not stopped him. stopping him requires major blood loss or turning off his lights. if he is wearing body armour, the only thing that is going to stop him is a headshot.
The LAPD and LA County Sheriffs found out how effective handguns were against body armor during the Hollywood bank robbery. Multiple hits with 9mm and .45 did nothing to phase the robbers until bullets found gaps in the armor and rifles got on the scene.
and one of those committed suicide by shooting himself in the head with his own pistol!
if, in the unlikely event have to shoot a BG center mass and i noticed there wasn't any major blood loss, i would seriously have to consider going for a head shot!
a person wearing body armour getting shot is probably the equivalent of getting punched in the stomach with a fist. how hard or big the fist would be comparitive to what caliber being shot. point is, the BG is only slowed down, not stopped by any means.
another point is, relying on a one stop shot, irregardless of caliber IMO is playing foolish. i don't care if i carry one of my small 380's or one of my 44's or 45's, i for one am not going to rely on just one shot. even in the home and i have access to my 12 ga., still not going to rely on just one shot to stop a BG. one shot stops look good on TV or the movies, but reality is fickle *****!
That's one thing I thought my wife to do. If you ask her what to do if you have to shoot someone she will say "double tap to the chest and try for one in the head on the way down"
Well I have both (research and first hand expertise) and the terminal effect of your 45 and my 9mm, with the best defence ammo available, are realistically the same. But as you said, to each his own. I do prefer a gun with less recoil, smaller in size, and a higher basic load (more mag capacity) if I find myself in harms way ( and I have been in harms way many times in my life)!
Who the hell wears body armour? Besides the LA thing. Most BG's don't have flak suits.
Within 5 to 10 feet most anyone should be able to do a head shot from the hip. Double taps to the chest are BS if you think there is any armour. The first shot is what counts. "There is no second place winner".
The sure immediate stop of body function is a hole thru the back of the brain, achieved, depending on angle of shot, from under the chin to the eyes and nose.
And again, in a central nervous system hit, both rounds are about equal.
A central nervous system hit (hit to brain or spinal cord) is about the only way you are going to get a one shot stop, other than emotional response from the targeted individual. IF the brain and spine are missed, and the bad guy doesn't freak out, or emotionally retreat, teh next thing to stop them is blood loss. To accomplish that there has to be a hit to a major blood vessel or blood filled organ or enough tissue damage to make massive blood loss occur. That is not likely to happen instantly. So to increase the rate of blood loss, more than likely, more than one shot from a handgun is going to be required.
I do agree that first shot and it's placement are critical but, I think it is best to advise anyone carrying for self defense to be prepared to fire more than one shot, and to be prepared to empty the gun if needed.
In the past 10 years Dallas bad guys have been wearing body Armor. They were caught by being stupid in other ways and by good detective work. Most to all were wearing the same grade of armor worn by patrol officers or better. Houston, not so much. And I never stated one shot. Start low finish high. And do the double tap tango all the way up.
please post some links to verify this. as this is the first i have heard of more than an isolated incidence in a BG wearing body armour.
A poster used he term 'kill factor', what is that? That's a new one on me and I have been in the business of testing and research for 25+ years!
Almost any body armor will stop a handgun round, thus the 'two to the body one to the head' drill we were required to shoot to qual. But the probability of a 'civilian' being confronted by an attacker wearing body armor is EXPREMLY low.