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Discussion in 'General Shotgun Discussion' started by dicky0331, May 27, 2009.
what do you guys prefer?
well if its snipers of allah then definitly flechettes. but other wise id probly go with buckshot
Buckshot of any sort is better ( or should I say I PREFER)
why buck shot over the flachettes? im asking because my uncle bought a bunch at the gunshow, and wants me to load them for him. these things look like they would turn someone into hamburger at 10 yds. they look like would do a crazy amount of damage.
anyone got any loading data for these things, or knows where to find it? also anyone know of links of these things shot into gel?
Here's a short write-up and some ballistic gel pictures:
Ballistic gelatin test results : 12 gauge Sabot Designs Flechette Sabot cartridge - THR
At close range (under 25 yards) the flechettes are not yet stable. They are fin stabilized and may take longer to smooth out the yawing motion. If they were bent by the forces of firing, they will never stabilize. 50-100 yards they should stabilize out and do well. From what I have been able to find out is they tend to spread fairly quickly to a circle of about 36" in diameter and hold that pattern til they lose energy and fall. It is hard to get one to go much past 200 yards out of a shotgun.
Flechettes are intended to penetrate vegetitation and wound the target deeply. They lack the kinetic energy (because of their low weight) to stop a target. They can produce nasty wounds that may result in a fatality, eventually.
I prefer buckshot. A proper load will hold relatively tight patterns to 40-50 yards or so. I took a coyote at 65 yards with Winchester 000 2 3/4" buck. I fired three shots in rapid succession at two coyotes. Killed one big male (65#) with a single pellet to the rib cage.
I have loaded some flechettes. Do considerably research before attemping such an undertaking. The fins will tear up a barrel so a good wad is needed. Ballistic Products LBC (Limited Bore Contact) 43 wads will protect the bore from the steel flechettes but will limit the payload to about 15. You can get more in there if you load some backwards but that really screws up the patterns. The backward ones will collide with the forward ones as they try to do an about face.
You can load up to about 20 with a conventional wad (WW12R) but you lose a cosiderable amount of bore protection both from the fins and the tips as the red wad is not deep enough to enclose the entire length fo the flechette.
Buckshot is a much more viable payload for handloading. A .312 round ball mould will give you single 0 buck. 12 pellets at about 45 grains each will give you a load of about 1 1/8 oz. Red wads and blue dot powder can give you 1300 fps w/o any pressure problems. A 45 ACP case full of shot buffer thrown in for good measure adds a negligable amount of weight to the charge. Compression formed Winchester hulls (AA or smooth hi-brass) make a good container. I get predictable patterns of all 12 pellets in a B-27 silhouette at 25 yards.
I won't post my exact load but you can find a reasonable load in most manuals for this combination of hull, wad, powder and shot weight.
Fleshettes are merely steel shot with fins. In other words, Junk. Okay out of an artillery piece at 3000 FPS, but your trusty shotgun isn't a real artillery piece, regardless of what you dream of. Stick to buckshot. Far superior sectional density.
thanks guys for the info, I myself have aways relied on no.4's. but my uncle is very adamant about having these things loaded. so I have some more knowlage to seek.
is there any special dies that are needed for these things? will they mess up my press? (if they do he can find someone else!) again thanks for all the help!
Thanks for posting this info; i saw some of these in a catalog the other day & didn't know if they were really intended for use or as a novelty.
edit* Item AMM-005 in Cheaper than Dirt, $29.97 per pound. I think i'll pass.
Perhaps your Uncle should have a talk with the local DA first. IMHO, and from what I've read, juries (based on inflammatory rhetoric from DAs) view these as designed ONLY to cause terrible injuries, with no defensive use whatsoever. Juries tend to side with the victims, based on the wounds received.
Load up some 00 and tell Uncle they're flechettes. Given that, IIRC, they're outlawed by Treaty for causing horrendous wounds, I don't see a practical use for them.
If they had a practical use, there would be a civvie version of a military round that you could buy on the open market. That should be a BIG clue these aren't to be used for defensive purposes.
Flechettes are downright nasty. USAF used them in SUU 30 munitions in SE Asia. They just turn flesh into hamburger and just waste any other soft target. They are just made for killin'.....................markerdown
there is a company that sells them, I don't remember their name but they sell all kinds of crazy loads foe shotgun. they sell shells loaded with buck shot and slugs, stuff like that. whay don't ask me. butnow that you mention that whole D.A. thing, I aint gonna fart around and get messed up in some legal crap.
after looking at the post you guys put up, I wouldn't want to just wound some one with those things. when I shot at the hodgee's in fallujah, and elsewhere in iraq, I shot to kill, not wound, that same goes for my defense back here in the states. my uncle will just have to live with the fact that I won't load them for him, if he doesn't like it he can either find someone else to do it, or start reloading himself. I don't want to be responsible for giving the gun grabbers any more fodder that they can misconstrue...
Do I want to be in front of a jury while a lawyer accuses me of loading special shotgun shells INTENDED to literally NAIL a man to the wall? Hmmmm.... lemme get back to you on that...
FWIW, we used flechettes in the 90mm recoiless rifle, the 2.75 inch aerial rockets, and the 105mm howitzer. Yeah, when you hum 26 pounds of them out there, they are really impressive at breaking up human wave attacks. Say- does that shotshell hold 26 pounds? Oh.
ALCAN did some special 12 g flechette loads used by aircraft guards- since the light steel arrow did not have the mass to badly mess up the aircraft. (Shoot an infiltrator with an M-14, punch holes in 3 airplanes at same time)
IMHO, if I am sitting of front of a jury looking at the color photos of Mr. Bad Guy soaking into the walls and ceiling of Casa C3, I want to be able to say that in utter desperation to preserve the lives of family and self, I was forced to grab my deer gun or bird gun (which, BTW, does NOT look like it belongs to Arnold)
Trust me- at 20 ft, buckshot against an unarmored target is effective and devastating.
whooo boy, the old uncle wasn't to happy yohave been told he would have to load them himself! but hey, it is what it is. I showed him the link that was posted earlier, but he was being hard headed. southerners.... can be some of the most stubborn people!
If these loads are for sd or hd, I'd talk about stopping power. A flaschette load may tear up an intruder, but the buckshot will drop one. It is about lethality and force of punch. When I say lethality, I mean dead now; not dead later after they can make a statement to the police. Dead intruders tell no tales. Even if they are for hunting-same deal...dead now and humanely killed.
Yup. flechettes belong in artillery rounds and aerial munitions. They where designed to be indiscriminate hole pokers for "confirmed" target rich environments. That's why you hurl a few hundred pounds of them at a time into an area target. Not so good for use against specific man sized targets from a shot gun.
Firequest has them in 12 guage: Firequest International, Inc. [ Firequest.com ]
I believe that page could be retitled "novelty ammo". (just my opin)
Tell me about it. Try being a vegetarian in southern MS.
Flechette rounds are illegal in some states also. Buckshot is still legal in all 50.
Rock salt is money though.