Bruce Boyer's open carry report for Thousand Oaks street fair; CA 10-16-2011

Discussion in 'Legal and Activism' started by BruceBoyer, Oct 19, 2011.

  1. BruceBoyer

    BruceBoyer New Member

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    Open carry report from the Thousand Oaks Street Fair Oct 16th 2011
    Bruce Boyer.

    Attended the street-fair on Sunday after church, with my wife. We met up with our friends Frank and Christina. The street fair was held on Moorpark Rd. in the City of Thousand Oaks. The police had closed off the street and it was an advertised, open to the public, City event. There were no prohibited… signs at the entrance and people had their dogs and skateboards (items that might be typically excluded).

    We ate our lunch there and strolled around for two hours. They had a twelve piece swing band playing and as my wife and I are dancers we danced to quite a number of songs (the dance floor was the street so we stayed over on the sidewalk, photo attached). If you are open-carry and are up dancing with your wife, not like anyone could suggest one was trying to conceal anything! There were plenty of Sheriff’s deputies present at their booths as well as walk’in around. Security guys walk’in around too. No bother from any of them.

    By 3:30 we were getting close to being done when three (3) private security officers came up from behind me and the senior one announced that he could see that I was carrying a Ruger in my holster, proceeding to tell me the model number, caliber and that he could see that there was no magazine in it, that it was not loaded. He stated that he was a range instructor and more blather. That he understood that I thought I was exercising my 2nd Amendment rights but I was not allowed to have an unloaded handgun in public…….. I chose not to respond other than to smile. He then went on that my carrying had raised concerns and eyebrows and that I had better not put my hand in the gun and that I needed to either go put the gun in my car (I do not know upon what basis he thought I had a car there, as I did not) or give it to him, or I had to leave. I responded only that I thought he had nice eyebrows and that no thanks, I will just continue shopping. With that the security officer informed me that I had to leave. I asked him to clarify upon what basis was he ordering me to leave, and could he write it down? He complied in that he wrote on his card that he had ordered me to leave. He refused to list his reason but I did have him affirm his ‘reason’ in front of the other two officers and my friends were present to hear it as well.

    My wife who can suffer from anxiety sickness, needed to leave and go sit down. We continued to stroll and stopped for Christina to look at some pretty scarves. The Security officers chose to follow us informing me that they had requested the Sheriff’s deputies and repeatedly speaking at full volume over their radios about the “man with a gun” in such a manner that it was disturbing to many people in the immediate area. After Christina was done looking at the scarves, no deputies had arrived, I had the security officer again confirm that he was ordering me to leave and why, for that of “possession of an unloaded firearm in public”.

    With that we walked 50 yards to the Coffee Bean where my wife was sitting and went inside to order. In line I made a new friend who seeing the holster inquired about obtaining a CCW I told him that they are most difficult, but just open-carry. As we chatted I noticed a deputy walking by an eyeing me, so I of course waved to him.

    The deputies came in and asked if I would step outside. I readily consented, conducting myself in a most friendly demeanor. They asked to check my firearm, and I readily consented, asking the deputy if he would kindly remove it from the holster. He expressed his appreciation in my request and stated that it would have been uncomfortable for him were I to. I concurred that I understood that it might which is why I requested that he do so. He efficiently checked it and replaced it. Throughout, the two deputies were most polite. I conveyed that I was trying to be especially cooperative as I understood what they needed to do and the uncomfortable situation it placed them in. As two other deputies arrived I offered if the wished to check it as well, they declared it was unnecessary as the others had just done so. The deputy asked for my name which I readily gave him but I declined to provide DOB or other. In response to other questions I merely stated that I would love to chat, but another time. They asked if they could check it again, to run the serial number, and I readily consented. They completed that check and the deputy kindly replaced the Ruger in my holster.

    They inquired of me regarding the new law the governor signed that would make open-carry a crime (AB144) inquired if I knew when it took effect to which I answered that it was to take effect Jan 1st, 2012. They politely said that they did not know but that I was likely more knowledgeable in that area than they. I inquired if they were aware of some of the ‘exemptions’ in the bill, such as those for ‘attorneys’ and ‘bill-collectors”? They were not. I inquired as to how they were going to be able to determine who was an ‘attorney’, ‘bill-collector’, ‘retired cop’ etc?? No idea.

    I was able to ask them if they felt that even someone who was not nearly as well trained as they might not still be a most effective deterrent to a criminal looking to attack “their daughter”? They acknowledged that it would of course be. I asked them, rhetorically, that if the politicians truly cared about protecting women, that every woman who obtains a judge-signed restraining order would be issued a handgun and that as an officer of the law would they not volunteer their time to take the woman out to their range and teach her how to use it? Yes of course. They understood it. They get that the handgun is needed to protect women, their wives, their daughters.
    This was a well utilized opportunity to illustrate to four deputy sheriffs that open-carry gun owners are good friendly citizens, their neighbors. That open carry is what women, their wives and daughters need.

    The young man that I met in line who asked me about getting a CCW who watched the whole encounter with the Sheriffs wants to open carry as well as my friends Christina and Frank!

    Yes Frank took pictures of us dancin!
     
  2. chopkick

    chopkick New Member

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    In the state of Mexifornia, obtaining a CCW is not that hard depending on where you live. And telling someone otherwise and to "just open carry" is irresponsible. What the hell is open carry going to accomplish if the zombies see that you don't have a mag in the firearm?!? And IMO your dog and pony show is what added to your wife's anxiety disorder.
     

  3. armsmaster270

    armsmaster270 New Member

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    From Sacramento Valley Shooting Center Newsletter.

    Safety and CCW Classes

    Getting a CCW permit in Sacramento County is very easy. Recent changes in issuing policies mean that as long as you are not a felon or have been convicted of certain other crimes you are able to get a CCW. Self Defense is good cause, you don't need to be a banker! You do have to pass a background check and pass a 16 hour safety course. Sac Valley can help you with the training. Call us to find out when the next class is on. FSC members get a discount!

    It seems more & more L.E. Admins are realizing that they can't always be there to save you and are issuing a do it yourself kit.
     
  4. ArizonaLawman

    ArizonaLawman New Member

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    I am all for constitutional carry across the board...so hold your BIC lighters at bay for the moment, then flame away if y'onto.

    I think OC in metropolitan areas is silly. Kind of like going into an ethnic neighborhood with slogans that insult that ethnicity. Sure, you have (or SHOULD HAVE) the RIGHT to do it...but is it really smart to do it?

    Concealed carry is a FANTASTIC advantage no matter where you are. Number one...it keeps the "stinky eye off YOU" and not from LE...but from everyone else, who's OPINION doesn't matter, but do you want someone with less than honest intent making YOU the first target to shoot? That round may come from behind from HIS concealed handgun you knew nothing about because it was concealed and you get shot from ambush...before you have the chance to react.

    Take a banking institution for example. You are inside making your deposit or whatever and you are carrying open. A pair of armed robbers enters the bank, sees YOUR conspicuously displayed pistol, and before they even announce their intent they blow you to hell. Trust me, they aren't going to freeze in their tracks because you're carrying a gee-whizz tacticool 1911 or whatever. They aren't going to flee in fright because you are packin' a roscoe. The chances are very good that since they are already in for a penny, they might as well be in for a pound, and smoke you on the spot, then yell..."THIS IS A ROBBERY!". You have just been made an example of what not to do.

    HOWEVER...if you're carrying concealed...you aren't THE GUY THEY SHOOT FIRST. Things may go smoothly if everyone listens, no one tries to be a hero, and by golly YOU are still ALIVE. They get their money, and de-ass the area. BUT...if things go badly, and they panic and start shooting people; you are still armed and may just have that one chance in a zillion to save your butt because YOUR roscoe was concealed.

    Even when I was a detective and working plain clothes...my gun, badge, and cuffs were not visible. No one knew I was a cop until I identified myself, or was working a crime scene and had my badge out of my pocket and clipped to my belt. I never wore the silly OAKLEYS with POLICE emblazoned on the temples or the key lanyard with POLICE on the side around my neck with a PD ID on it. Why let some scumbag know who I was and give them an advantage?

    You can bet if I was in that bank, I would be "Mr Compliant" until I had to act, and then and only then would anyone know I was armed. It's not cowardice or being chicken****...it's just sound tactical thinking. I'd a whole lot rather smoke a bad guy when I had all the advantage I could muster.

    If the scumbags were armed with AK's, AR's, shotguns...what advantage does my pistol really give me? NONE if they know I have it. If they don't know...then that moment MAY arrive when I can take them out without getting my own silly ass or some other person's ass dead. Do I have the right to foolishly risk your grandma's life? Do I have the right to risk yours? Even if they miss me with that ambush shot...that bullet could, and may very well hit your wife, or mom, or whomever. Trust me, the scumbags aren't all that concerned with a safe back stop.

    You never want to make yourself the obvious first target. Personally...I like being "Mr Gray". I don't want to be the one who is sticking out like a dildo at Disney Land. I'd rather be just another faceless guy in a crowd until I have to be otherwise. Then surprise surprise...I just RUIN'T YER DAY.

    Personally...I'd do ALL I could to get a CCW in your state. Get SHALL ISSUE or MUST ISSUE laws passed, then work on open-carry too.

    Carrying a defensive handgun is a PRIVILIGE in most states according to the laws in those states. It's not a RIGHT recognized by the politicians who legislated YOUR rights away. So, you have to work with what you have. If you live in an open carry-only state...then try to get CCW. If not...then work with what you have and carry open. But if you can, and have the choice...hide them roscoes.

    I KNOW that the Second Amendment is the guarantor of your and my right to keep and bear arms...which to any thinking person means "The Right To Own And Carry Arms". Yes, it is and was always intended to be an absolute RIGHT. But the government has pissed on it, and now we are left with the PRIVILIGE to own and carry arms in some states...it sucks. I really hate it...but that's sadly the way it is.

    Wow...too much coffee again.

    Here's to the fight to re-affirm our RIGHT to keep, carry, use arms for self defense by our OWN decision and determination with NO government interference.

    A poster above this called the OP a "dog and pony show" and I tend to agree. If the property was private property at all...you could be asked to leave by security without being given a reason, if you fail to comply, then you are guilty of trespassing. Carrying an empty pistol is...what???? A paperweight? Even two loaded mags give you ZERO advantage over a scumbag with a knife or even an illegally concelaed pistol...you just painted the SHOOT ME FIRST sign on YOU. Creating a situation where deputies had to come deal with you and your posturing was a waste of their time. Debating the law, or their own habits and views concerning the Second Amendment was also a waste of time. Cops don't make laws, we enforce them. Period. You even wasted the time of the mall ninjas...I hated dealing with them as an officer, and by God I don't waste my own time dealing with them now that I am retired. Stunts like that, and yes to my mind it IS a stunt, is doing nothing for the cause but making a hole in time no one will ever get back.

    You know, you could have been charged with trespassing AND disturbing the peace? Would that have been worth it? What if you got a year probation with a "posess no firearms" rider as a condition of that probation. You just made yourself a prohibited possessor even in your own home, so what would have been accomplished?
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2011
  5. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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  6. Sniper03

    Sniper03 Supporting Member Supporter

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    Arizona,

    Well stated my brother!

    03
     
  7. ArizonaLawman

    ArizonaLawman New Member

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    Thanks.

    The open carry versus concealed carry debate will rage like the 9mm versus 45 debate.

    I support the RIGHT to do it....just not the thinking behind doing it.

    I just get the feeling that the guys who are open-carrying UNLOADED weapons aren't "fighting" for recognition and affirmation of a right...they are getting "in your face" and trying to prove something or to illicite response from LE to grand stand.

    I got a "man with a gun" call at a mall some years ago. The guy was mid 40's Average Joe type feller. NOT at all the kind of guy who would pique my curiosity or "spidey senses". Had I seen him carrying and no one had called, I'd not give him another thought and certainly not approached him. Open carry has always been legal in Arizona...no big deal.

    HOWEVER....mall ninja makes the call. I catch the call. I go to the call.

    I approach Mr. Average all the while the mall ninja is chirping in my ear..."I observed the suspect....blah blah blah"

    First, I asked Mr Average to stand by for a second while I talked to the mall ninja. I ran his ID....never relieved him of his firearm...he came back no wants no warrants.

    I told the mall ninja...."Number one, he's NOT a SUSPECT for anything. He's not breaking any law. He's within his rights to carry a firearm. Whether or not management here allows firearms to be carried on the property is another matter and a matter of POLICY not law, and there is NO sign anywhere that I can see that prohibits the carrying of a firearm, and certainly no signs as you drive onto the property. So, he hasn't even violated a POLICY yet because there is no obvious signage that he could reasonably be expected to have read. I can take this from here."

    "Um, I guess he can stay if he locks up his gone."

    "Okay, good you and I are done here."

    I went back to Mr Average and told him..."I am sorry I have to be here having this conversation with you Sir. I know you're not breaking the law, and I know you have the right to carry in Arizona. The security guard told me they don't allow guns to be carried on the property. You can still go in the mall if you lock up your gun. Personally, I'd go to another place to shop because they are going to hassle you here and I don't want to have to come back for their silly nonsense. Do you have your ccw?"

    He answered that he was waiting for it to come in the mail.

    "Okay, cool. I was going to give you the name of a friend who does ccw classes at a reasonable price."

    He thanked me and went to another mall a few miles away.

    He WAS open carrying in a state where open carry has always been legal. He wasn't trying to be in anyone's face, least of all mine. He just wanted to do some shopping. The political climate in AZ is leaps and bounds away from that in Cali and your average person also knows open carry is legal (now ccw without a permit too) and won't bat an eye.

    BUT...I still had to spend a half hour plus paperwork time on a BS call. If Mr Average would have got up on a soapbox preaching Second Amendment and giving ME a hard time....it would have ended poorly for him. He had been told at that time to lock up or leave. If he refused, now he is committing a crime (trespass even criminal trespass or EVEN misconduct with a firearm while trespassing). Obviously, I wouldn't go through all that nonsense because he understood where I was coming from and I am a BIG 2A guy...so we handled it right and no one got any feathers ruffled but the mall ninja.

    The OP who ignored the security guard who DOES HAVE AUTHORITY at a closed event where they are hired to be....that wasn't kosher. Giving the deputies a hard time about DOB etc...really wasn't kosher. I get the feeling the OP was looking for confrontation...and really...a confrontation that isn't going to be won pissing in a mall ninja or a cop's pocket.
     
  8. vincent

    vincent New Member

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    ^^^Is anyone going to do something about this guy???^^^
     
  9. Tackleberry1

    Tackleberry1 New Member

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    LMAO...HOLLY SHNIKIES! Sticking out like a DILDO at DISNEYLANY....Still........Ling.....m..a...OFF!

    TACK
     
  10. alsaqr

    alsaqr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Open carry worked very well for him in TN. :D
     
  11. BruceBoyer

    BruceBoyer New Member

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    Happy I evoke some thoughts. A reply and rebuttal.

    The re are several points here:
    1. Is that of Open vs Concealed. There are good arguments for both, but that assumes that one has an option. In So. california CCW is NOT an option. 12 million people in LA County 214 CCWs. Sheriff Baca is antigun for non-LE in CA he gets 'discretion', and he says no (unless you are a big time $$ donor). This is why the need for 'Shall-issue". But since the argument is what to do today, there is only one option, OPEN CARRY. If in thefutuire we reestablish our rights to carry concealled, then we can have a valid discussion on the merits.
    2. Political impact. If by some amazing stroke of victory, say we got 10,000 So-cal folks who were able to get CCWs from Sacramento, or Shasta Co Sheriffs, and then go around CCW in So Cal. What political impact do they make? Answer; 10,000 people who will more strongly defend their right. 10,000 who already do so because those are the folks who would go through the ordeal of moving to another County, schmoozing through the processs to get the CCW at the 'discretion' of a Sheriff and move back to So cal. Net gain, minimal. Now let us consider the political impact of 10,000 people (many or most being women) OPEN-CARRYING (OC) in So-Cal. They need not obtain any 'permit', they can go out today. When we are out and about in our daily lives, on an average day 100 people will see you OC. They are the people in El Pollo Loco when you have lunch, the dry cleaners, the bakery where I stopped in to get a coffee and pastry, the hair salon. 100 people per day see a man or better, a woman carrying a gun, who is nice pleasant and just another neighbor/customer. Really no different than anyone else. A Man with a gun (always better that it's a woman) does not equal danger, it equals safety.They have seen it with their own eye. They become acclimated to it. It's fine, you see it all the time, no big deal, whatever, so what, yeah and what about it? We change their perception, their viewpoint. How many? Do the math. 10,000 OC impacts ONE MILLION people a DAY! In sixty days that would impact everyone in LA County FIVE times. That changes the perception of twelve million people!
    OC is by far the most effective means to impact the population is a positive way. This would accomplish more from 10,000 gun owners in sixty days than the milllions of blog posts and internet stories and conversations amongst ourselves will in 100 years! Conversing amonst ourselves is equivelant to the Church sending it's missionaries to the church choir!
    #3 Positive effect on Law enforcement: I will post this later, let you all digest and debate #1 and #2
    #4 The superior crime deterrent value of OC.
    Again later.
    #5 Dispelling the assumption that OC reduces one's tactical posture as opposed to CCW, it changes it, but change does not equal deficient, can be better, wore or equal. Very much depends on the situation variables.
    Again later, but really a moot point as CCW is NOT an option.
     
  12. BruceBoyer

    BruceBoyer New Member

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    Can we get some more creative comments or input here?

    Please do share your thoughts.Open Carry is a huge issue and I welcome your thoughts, reaction and input.
     
  13. vincent

    vincent New Member

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    Well my friend, it seems your reports, as well written and colorful as they are, are falling on deaf ears here. Just the way things are I suppose as nobody I know would prefer to OC when they can CC, nevermind unloaded. If I'm not mistaken, OC in CA is done and over with as of 1/1/12, so please share with us what you plan to do then? You obviously have a talent for the written word and it would be a shame to let it go to waste on a defunct subject such as OC. Maybe contribute to this site with more relevant subject matter? Just my .02
     
  14. fmj

    fmj New Member

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    OC an UNLOADED weapon does NOT equate to public safety. PERIOD!

    Other than that AZL covered everything i could/would say just fine.

    (sticking out like a dildo @ disney land) Colorful. Well done! I'm still giggling like a school girl at a chipendales show.
     
  15. ArizonaLawman

    ArizonaLawman New Member

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    I'd be curious to read what the "positive effect on law enforcement" might be. Seeing as how I have a couple of decades of experience in that particular arena.
     
  16. ArizonaLawman

    ArizonaLawman New Member

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    Okay...here's the deal from MY perspective.

    You SHOULD have the RIGHT to carry concealed or open. I won't enter debate about that, or brook any nonsense accusing me of being anti 2A or an elitist cop. The Second Ammendment is pretty self-explanatory.

    The reality, however, is that in Commifornia you don't have the RIGHT to carry period. Open or concealed....at best you have the PRIVILIGE of doing so. Californians allowed their RIGHTS to be stomped upon and pissed them away...it was 1968 as I recall when the Black Panthers did their armed march on Sacremento and got the politicians bustles in a bunch, and ***POOF*** away went your RIGHTS (stolen by apathy and political agenda). Fast forward to 2011...your last remaining shred of a "right" to carry...***POOF***...gone. See ya. Was nice knowin' ya.

    Oddly....the Bloods, Crips, and others of the gang banger ilk will be largely unaffected by the new legislation. I am also willing to bet the farm that they carry their guns concealed, fully loaded, and aren't impressed or deterred in ANY way by the sight of someone carrying an unloaded pistol. Public safety has NOT been enhanced.

    Further proof that the majority of the people who voted in California are idiots...they elected Jerry Brown after all. Point made.

    So...now you have a distant memory of a free state where you were could live as free men and women. Shame on you all for letting it happen. Shame on you for carrying your unloaded guns and getting in the face of cops (who, as I can tell you do NOT make the law, we simply have to enforce the law, and pissing in OUR pockets will get you exactly NOWHERE). Shame on you for giving the lefties and the antis MORE ammunition to use against you because "they" saw a bunch of guys/gals getting in the face of cops, mall ninjas, or just about anyone they could in the name of excercising "rights" thay they didn't really have, and as a result, polarized the politicians who took away the "privilige" of carry an unloaded gun (paperweight).

    Good for you. You seem to have done the job FOR the other side.

    I won't get into dogma, doctrine, or sound tactics of CC versus OC...did it. My views won't change.

    Arizona, Alaska, Vermont, Wyoming....FREE STATES with CONSTITUTIONAL CARRY. RIGHTS AFFIRMED, PROTECTED, and RESPECTED.
     
  17. BruceBoyer

    BruceBoyer New Member

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    The pos. effect on law enforcement answer.

    The law enforcement got to meet a gun owner who was not a crip/Blood domestic Violance/Robber. A pleasant friendly, good citizen, their neighbor. Someone who knew the law far better than they did yet was not condescending, who was helpful and had the shared goal of making our community safer. Someone who would be defendingtheir wives and daughters by the fact that he openly carries and a citizen who would step up to defend his community, includingtheir wives/daughters.

    Do you all agree or disagree with that pretext?
     
  18. BruceBoyer

    BruceBoyer New Member

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    Is OC going away on 1-1-2012, really?

    OC carry is not going away on 1-1-2012. But you thougth it was, how is that? Well if you read the short synopsis of AB 144 that stated that persons may not OC, you would have thought that. If you read the bill you will understand it does not make OC a crime. It makes open carry by non-exempt people, in many places or circumstances a crime.
    The list of exemptions is not only vast but it fails to establish a threshhold of Probable Cause to determine if someone is in violation.

    For example, Officer Dave observes a guy OC at a Street Fair. That individual who is openly (that is key 'openly', not trying to conceal what he is doing, criminals make an attempt to conceal, when people do things in an open manner it is because they are not breaking law, or at least they do not think so, that's intent, a requirement) carrying a firearm. So upon what basis is the individual breaking the law? The only option is to ask him, and if he states that he is not someone who is exempt or possibly doing something that is not within the list of exemptions which are not based opon where, but upon why.

    If the person chooses not to identify himself as someone who is not an exempt person, their is no probable cause. Should the officer arrest, it's a violation of his rights, even if he is not exempt. If he is exempt, it's a bigger violation of his rights. The person can be exempt if the person is of the following, an attorney, a bill collector, a person employed in collecting financial information, a security guard (in uniform is not required) and of coures an active or retired Law Enf.
    Read the bill. I have with one attorney, and will with several others! The exemptions are many and impossible to determine (unless the person goes "well officer I am not a person who is exempt or someone who is doing something that would not qualify as an exemption, this is called admitting guilt).

    So is that guy an attorney, a bill collector, a guy with a security guard card, or a retired cop from New Mexico?? The only way to know is to ask, if the person chooses to just smile and ignore the question, no PC! No PC, no arrest. If they do arrest, fine file charges. Based on what evidence? As they have violated our 14th Amendemnt, some people are criminals if they OC while othes are not. Unless one admits they a are not an exempt person, the cannot file any charges.Lets say they file charges. They have to prove the officer had probable cause to believe the 'suspect' was not exempt "How do you know he was not a bill collector, or an attorney, or a cop or a security guard not in uniform?? Cannot convict as there is no proof that suspect/accused was not at the time a security guard/attorney etc etc. One is not required to prove their innoncence, and they cannot prove you are not a bill collector, attorney etc. Motion to dismiss, hello Fed Civil Rights lawsuit.
    Wiull there be lots of folks OC who are retired cops, attorneys etc, who will just 'smile'. You bet! The task is to get as many as possible and see that everyone else knows his 5th Amendment rights as well as his or her 2nd!

    How big a Civil rights lawsuit is it when LASD or SDSD arrests a bunch of attorneys. retired cops and sec guys, then file charges, to hae them dismissed? ENOURMOUS!This is called effective resistance that wins! Winning is the key, not hiding. This is plan B. There is plan A and C. The plans will all be up on the SonsofLibertyLAdotcom website soon.

    In a State of 30 million people, fifty stalwart men and women can defeat them and restore our liberty. It's a lot easier with five hundred, with five thousand it's a slam dunk. But it must start with one. One we have. Do we have two?
     
  19. ttolhurst

    ttolhurst New Member

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    Well, good luck with that.
     
  20. vincent

    vincent New Member

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    We have one here...me...who thinks you should be banned for flaming. Do we have two?