Blowing primers out

Discussion in 'General Rifle Discussion' started by E-Rez, Aug 29, 2010.

  1. E-Rez

    E-Rez New Member

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    I'm in the process of sighting in a rifle and the last two rounds out of six had the primers "falling" out. I've been shooting guns for over a decade and have never seen this. Faulty ammo or gun? It's a Savage 114 Classic 270 and I'm using cheap blue box Federals.

    [​IMG]

    Waiting on a diagnosis before I shoot any more...don't wanna risk damaging the gun.
     
  2. 375shooter

    375shooter New Member

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    It's a possibility that the gun has an oversized chamber, specifically in the region of the case rim. The pressure during firing could be expanding the head to the point that the primer pockets are enlarged enough that the primers are able to fall out. I would contact Savage's technical department.
     

  3. joshfireart

    joshfireart New Member

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    its a pressure issue dont shoot any moor. send it to savage or your gun smith and have them check it out. pretty rare to have it be a factory ammo problem. there dose appear to be primer flow
     
  4. cpttango30

    cpttango30 New Member

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    DON'T SHOOT IT ANYMORE.

    You are having one of 2 problems.

    1. the factory ammo was loaded wrong and you are runing over pressure.

    2. Something is wrong with your gun.

    I would say it is a factory ammo problem myself. All of the primers in the picture show signs of HIGH pressure. The ring around the firing pin dent is where the primer is flowing into the hole on the face of the bolt.

    I would get some different factory loads and set the sucker in a lead sleed and put a string on the trigger and fire 2 or 3 rounds of while hiding behind a very solid object. Check them primers on that lot and go from there. If you are seeing issues like this with a different brand of ammo then take that gun back there is something wrong if you don't take that ammo and cal the manufacture.
     
  5. Tuner

    Tuner New Member

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    First question is what is your cleaning procedure for the rifle. Did you do a good bore cleaning when you put it up last. If the bore was allowed to rust bullet fouling could build up fast. Shots 5 & 6 blew primers. Was the barrel hot and did you allow the cartridge to cook in the chamber for some time prior to shooting which could have heated the powder jacked up the pressures. Combination of the two might possibly add to the pressure but me thinks that is a stretch.

    I would call or email Federal and ask if they have had any recalls on that lot of ammunition. The lot number should be on the box of ammo. If you have a michrometer I would mike the bullets and see what they are; a .270 bullet should mike .277.

    My guess is that if you have properly maintained the rifle and you never had a problem like this in the past you have an ammunition problem and I would make that call to Federal.
     
  6. E-Rez

    E-Rez New Member

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    I started shooting a different box of ammo before the "faulty" box (started with 150 gr and switched to 130 gr after four shots). The 150 gr loads also show that the primer is going back into the firing pin hole.
    [​IMG]

    I talked to my gunsmith over the phone and he said all the same things that have been brought up here. I will be taking it to him to look at tomorrow afternoon.

    I did notice that in both boxes of ammo the ring around the firing pin dent and the ejector mark got worse as the gun heated up...

    Tuner - the gun is two weeks old and has only had 10 rounds put through it today. I cleaned it after I brought it home and in between shots while breaking it in.
     
  7. Tuner

    Tuner New Member

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    That pretty much rules out excessive fouling or damage to the bore! Primers are not necessairly a good indicator of pressure. A soft primer cup will show what could be interpreted as high pressure when in fact things could be normal; however, blown primers that happend in your first post is another story all together.

    Your second box of ammo appears to be the same make, Federal and if it is the same Lot Number you have really not changed anything. It would be interesting to see what a box of Win. or Rem. ammo will do. Do you have any problems chambering a round? I can't imagine it happening but I suppose a manufacturer could have a barrel slip through that did not get throated and bullets were being jammed into the rifling causing excessive pressures.

    I would hope you have a good smith, not just someone that sells guns and mounts scopes, to evaluate the rifle. I would personally contact both Savage and Federal, explain the age of the gun, number of rounds fired, what happend and email them pictures. Something is not right and one of the two needs to come up with the answer. I certainly hope you are wearing good safety glasses when you fire that rifle.

    Please let us know the final answer you get.
     
  8. cpttango30

    cpttango30 New Member

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    Tuner is right on with that statement. ALso federal primers are known in the reloading world to be softer than just about any other primer.

    So it may end up being that you have a nice tight chamber and the factory loads are at the upper end of the load spectrum and the federal primers are soft. Though the primers that fell out are scary.

    Let me ask how was the bolt lift on the 2 shots were the primers fell out? Was the bolt stiff did you have to use more than your thumb and index finger to rotate the bolt and pull it back?

    Also let us know what goes on from here on.
     
  9. E-Rez

    E-Rez New Member

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    No problems chambering. I honestly couldn't tell if there was any more force needed to lift the bolt as my other savage rifle has a heavy bolt lift. As you probably know, the firing pin is cocked as the bolt is lifted, hard to do this with just a thumb and finger - for me at least.

    It might be a while till I can contact Savage since they close at 4 pm eastern and I get off work at 3:30 pm central...darn the luck!

    Thanks for hanging in there with me.
     
  10. Tuner

    Tuner New Member

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    What cpt--30 said about bolt lift is good, understand the cock on opening resistance, but does there appear to be any additional drag or resistance?

    Things that will usually cause too much pressure that come to mind:
    1. Tight chamber-- doesn't allow the cartridge to expand and release the bullet when fired, pressures jump.
    2. Bullet pushed into the rifiling-- bullet does not get a "running start" to overcome the rifling engraving process and pressures jump.
    3. A tight barrel, drilled and reamed smaller then typical diameter -- takes more pressure to push a bullet down the barrel. Because the rifle is new we will assue it is smooth and not fouled excessively.
    4. Too much powder for the cartridge bullet combination.

    To check 1 & 2 above a smith would probably have to do a chamber cast with cerosafe and then mike the neck dimensions and measure the amount of lead in the chamber. I don't think using a set of go no go headspace gauges will tell you much here as they measures the distance from the base of the cartridge to a point on the shoulder where the headspace is measured, not the diameter of the neck. In fact headspace gauges do not have necks on them.

    To check 3 he would probably "slug" the barrel with a soft lead plug and then mike the slug which should come out to .308.

    There is not much one can do about the loaded ammo, even if you pullled a round down weighing the powder isn't going to tell you much as you will not know what type of powder it is and it could very well be a non standard powder that is bought in bulk and charges adjusted by lot by the manufacturer.

    Please keep us posted.
     
  11. E-Rez

    E-Rez New Member

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    I called Federal and left a message this evening. Should get a call from em tomorrow.
     
  12. Tuner

    Tuner New Member

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    E-R, sounds great, please keep all of us updated on what you find out.
     
  13. Gatekeeper

    Gatekeeper New Member

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    Could also be a symptom of excessive headspace (large chamber/small ammo) if I'm not mistaken.
    When the firing pin hits the primer it knocks the cartridge forward off the extractor. The pressure from the firing then forces the brass to expand off the shoulder and the case head slams back against the bolt face and severely flattens the primers (if not worse).
    One of my cousins old 35 Whelens exhibited this problem. The bolt wasn't hard to lift or stiff, but the primers were flat as a pancake. Took it to the gunsmith, and found a slightly larger than spec chamber to be the problem.
    Not saying that is the problem with yours, but I'd take it to a 'smith to be safe.
     
  14. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    The first pic has a bit of glare so I cannot be difinitive here, but the primers on the suspect ammo do appear to show more pressure signs. They appear to be more flattened. There is more cratering/flow than with the ammo in the second pic. I would definately consult with Federal. I would say it is an ammo problem with the first ammo.
     
  15. E-Rez

    E-Rez New Member

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    Well, no returned phone call from Federal and they didn't answer the phone when I tried em again today...not too sure I'm pleased with that.

    On a good note, Savage couldn't have been any more helpful. I've got the gun all packaged up and ready to be shipped east tomorrow. They even said they'd reimburse me of the shipping charges :) I kinda hope they tell me the gun was OK from the beginning so I can get really upset with Federal.
     
  16. Highpower

    Highpower New Member

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    Any chance you could post close-up pics of these areas on these 2 cases?

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  17. E-Rez

    E-Rez New Member

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    Sorry highpower...all the empties were sent to Savage with the rifle...but when I get a chance I can see if my 'puter has a picture editing program. I could zoom in on the original pic without much distortion - hopefully.
     
  18. big shrek

    big shrek Well-Known Member

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    My SOP is to start with the Ammo.

    After you try some known high-quality ammo, you then start looking for gun problems.

    Cheap ammo often gives oddball problems...

    Take Remington Golden Bullet .22lr...most inconsistant ammo I've ever run across.
    You can't get consistant chrony reads off a whole bulk pack. They're all over the place, and that ain't all.
    Short powder loads,
    No powder loads,
    No primer loads,
    Insufficient Primer in case,
    Badly done crimping,
    Different bullet diameters,
    Probably why folks call 'em Remington Golden Bullsquish ;)
    Reminiscent of Thunderbolts (Thunderduds)

    I constantly see people cussing their guns...when I wander over to check out the issue, it's most often the ammo that's the problem...closely followed by the trigger nut. After you rule out those two issues, diagnosis gets easier :D
     
  19. E-Rez

    E-Rez New Member

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    Got the gun back last week from Savage. Apparently it checked out ok. Not much said other than the gun was fired four times and cleaned. They sent the four fired casings back to me. Two of the primers look normal but the other two still have raised rings around the primer dent. I'll pick up some ammo to put through it this coming weekend and let you all know what I find out.
     
  20. Biohazard2

    Biohazard2 Member

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    Is there any "soot" around the neck of the case?
    Some of the spent cases have a small "Ding" in them, indicating high pressure.