"blowback"?

Discussion in 'Ammunition & Reloading' started by Rosko Packer, Feb 10, 2010.

  1. Rosko Packer

    Rosko Packer New Member

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    I am new to reloading and have a novice's question. I have been trying different loads/bullets in a 41mag revolver. When using H110, with jacketed bullets, gases were shooting out from the front of the cylinder where I could feel them strike my face. I saw no signs on the cases of pressure problems, but after only 10 rounds gray powder residue was all over the outside of this gun. I shot the same charge and bullet weight but with cast bullets and this doesn't happen. I have been trying to analyse what caused this (haven't shot any of the "blowbackers" since as it almost seems like the bore is too tight for the jacketed bullets, also seems that this would jump pressure thru the roof). Any info,ideas,experience, or info would be much appreciated.
     
  2. TheOldMan

    TheOldMan New Member

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    Could you supply us with your bullet types, weight, and powder charges that you are using? I'm no expert either but one thing that comes to mind for me might be the type of crimp you are using on the jacketed bullets? You usually want to use a roll crimp on your magnum loads if memory serves.
     

  3. cpttango30

    cpttango30 New Member

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    Gas escapes from there on a revolver. H110 is a powder I have not used.

    Some powder are dirtier than others. I would pull the bullets on any remaining loads and check to make sure that your not over loaded. In many pistol cartridges it is very easy to get double charges.

    Some people do load for "SHOW" they find the powder that produces the biggest flame just to spook people at the range.
     
  4. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    H-110 is a very good choice for Magnum revolver rounds. I use a similar powder (W-296) for my hot loads in .357, .41 and .44 mag. Gray residue is well burnt powder. In the cast bullet loads, are you using H-110?

    I would be a bit concerned of an overcharge. My experience with .41 mag tells me it is an efficient cartridge capable of exceeding .44 mag ballistics. The guns are marginally stronger than comparable .44's because of the smaller holes bored into the same size cylinder/barrel giving more steel to protect you.

    I would pull a few of the bullets and weigh the charge. Triple check the charge weight against your loading data and the Hodgdon web site to make sure you have not goofed.

    According to the Hodgdon web site the max load for a 210 gr JHP is 22 grains for 1631 fps (that is FAST!) and 26.5 gr for a 170 gr JHC yielding 1887 fps (that is REALLY fast!!!). I use 22 gr of W-296 with the 170 gr in all three of my .41 Mags.
     
  5. Missileman

    Missileman New Member

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    I reload .41 Mag exclussively with H110 and jacketed bullets--however, it is a slow buring powder and you should not shoot reduced loads in it, so just make sure you are within the range listed in the loading manuals--I've never had any problems, but it does throw out quite a flame in a dark shooting range!
     
  6. Rosko Packer

    Rosko Packer New Member

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    bullets are Berry's "premium swaged-precision plated" FP @ 210gr, and Hunter's Supply SWC (2 wax grooves) @ 215gr. I started at 16gr H110, then 17,17.5 and the last I shot was 18gr. I noticed the "spray" a little bit down at the 16 and it increased as charge went up (only with the jacketed). I also loaded with Titegroup,Blue Dot, and even tryed some 700X. The only "blowback" was with the 110. This is not just gas coming out the sides of a revolver, this is gas pushing back (some clear to my face) that smeared clear up to the rear sight.
     
  7. canebrake

    canebrake New Member

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    Are the bullets that out-gas between the cylinder and the forcing cone totaly jacketed? Or are they open at the base exposing the bullet's core to the burning gas?

    Are you getting excessive leading in the barrel?

    Could your problem be as simple as the need for a gas check to prevent the burn-off of the bullet core?

    Additional information is needed; Gun make & model, barrel length, compensator or magna-ported, photos of the loading components - case (is brass new or fired) , primer, bullet and powder type and load that is causing the gray powder deposits. And photos of the gray deposits.
     
  8. Rosko Packer

    Rosko Packer New Member

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    I don't have any photos as I cleaned everything up. Gun is a Raging Bull, long barrel with factory comp holes. The bullets that did this are completely copper coated (base too). What seems strange to me is that the 110 and the jacketed bullets is the only combination that does this. I was expecting leading from the cast bullets, but have been pleasantly surprised at the lack of it. I have other powders so this isn't the end of the world, it is just one of those questions that "bugs" me. The primers are not magnum, just large pistol. I don't understand what difference that would make as far as this situation. I have always wanted to try the reloading thing but it seemed complicated to do right. I recently had a beloved uncle pass away who left to me a bunch of equip. People who reload all told me "aw, it's easy". Well, I guess in some ways it is. Prep a case, dump some powder, mash in a bullet,-good to go! As a person who likes to experiment a bit to do the best I can, I find I was right in the first place. There are a LOT of variables to deal with as I'm sure you know (seating depth,crimp style or not,primer brand and type,on and on). I have 8 books (manuals) and don't ever do anything that is not in more than one of them (how's that for "wimpy"?). I am just on a quest to develope the most accurate ammo I can (power is nice too, but secondary as the only thing I hunt anymore are jugs full of water, targets,and rocks)
     
  9. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    First and formost DO NOT USE BLUE DOT IN A .41 MAG!!!

    Alliant specifically says to not use Blue Dot. There have been some blow ups using it in this caliber.

    #2 A plated bullet should not be loaded with data for jacketed bullets. They are different. Plated bullets should be loaded with the same data for cast bullets.

    #3 16 gr of H-110 is too light. The published minimum is 19.8 gr with a JACKETED bullet. There is no data for H-110 with a cast bullet. Plated bullets should not be used with H-110
     
  10. Rosko Packer

    Rosko Packer New Member

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    HOLY COW! MORE variables! I have never read, or heard or paid attention to there being a difference between jacketed and plated. Can YOU throw some more info at me about this? Is it a hardness thing? Also, in Lyman's #49 the following loads are listed for 41mag:170gr jack HC-13.7-15.3gr Blue Dot,200gr jack HP-11.7-13gr Blue Dot, 210gr jack HP 11.9-13.3gr Blue Dot, 220gr jack SP 10.8-12.0gr Blue Dot. This is the latest Lyman's I have (copyright: 2008). Is there new news that this edition doesn't have?
     
  11. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    Hodgdon issued a warning in 2009 about Blue Dot.

    Why Blue Dot is a problem in .41 mags and not (apparently) in .44 mags is unknown to me. There have been several blown up guns that I am sure Hodgdon must have thoroughly investigated to come to such a conclusion. If they could not show the Kb's were the result of loader error, they have erred to the side of caution and said "no more" in the .41. It "may " have been loader error they just could not prove that so they must presume it to be a problem with their product.

    Plated bullets have a fairly thin layer of copper. They do not withstand the same kinds of forces a jacketed bullet will. The consensus is to use cast bullet data for the best results.

    W-296 (and to a lesser degree H-110) does not like an air space in the case. 90-100% of the available space (w/the bullet seated) is the rule with these powders. 296 can be more dangerous with a half charge than with a compressed charge.
     
  12. Rosko Packer

    Rosko Packer New Member

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    Thanks for all the good info. Just by the look and feel of them, I would have guessed the plated had the thicker covering. So much for guess work. I'm glad I have never "pushed" anything as far as max loads in the different manuals. I have yet to find any of the signs of pressure on a case. I might want to narrow down what I'm loading for. At this time I have tried a few of: 30-06,308,41,40,10mm,357 +38spl,8mm Mauser. I have everything to load and shoot but haven't tried: 243 Win,45acp,270 Win,7mm Rem mag,300 Win mag,30-30 Win.,35 Whelen. I was also given dies but don't have firearms for: 25-35,264 Win, 6mm Rem, and 244 (don't even know a thing about 244). I wish I had instead (cause I have the firearms)-454Casul,44mag,5.7X28,223,460 S+W,50 AE, 45-70gov,7.5X55 swiss,6.5X55 swede,7.62X54R,7.62X25,7.62X39, 257 Weath. and others. I guess you could say I'm a bit of a G-nut. People say to me "How many damned guns do you need anyway?" I always reply "Just one more than I already have!". Again thanks for the lernin' experience. You will probably hear from me again.
     
  13. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    When you are ready to get serious, I will tell you how to turn the oddball -06 family of cases into 8mm Mauser cases. 8mm boxer primed brass is kindo scarce but something like .270 can be had cheap, if not free. They can be easily turned into 8mm.
     
  14. Rosko Packer

    Rosko Packer New Member

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    I already took a shot at this since I have a buttload of 06 (milt + commercial). Don't know if I did it all the way I should have, but I loaded them and they shot great (only one use so far). Tell me if I did it OK as I just figured it would work. I cut the cases close to 8mm length (left them long which may have cost me more work later.) tried a hacksaw 1st, then tried a small grinder, finally found that a Dremel with cut wheel worked best. I then cleaned up the mouth edges, lubed and ran them thru FL 8mm die. I then had to trim to length (the extra work -as leaving them too long, I had to twist the crank quite a bit). I then had to clean up the edges again. It was very enjoyable to make something new and different from something old. I need to maybe re-order my steps to make this a bit easier, but like I said, I tried some out and they worked better than great (my old Mauser shot an inch or a little better at 100yds with iron sights and my (going fast) 56 year old eyes off a small sand shooting bag off the hood of my pick-up with these! Ya, I know it sounds like a BS story, but this is measured with calipers and a witness. Best 3 shots was .6875 center to center. This was with the best load in a range of loads made with 4064. I didn't make many of each powder weight, only 6 rounds each starting at 44 grains,then 45,46,47,48. All were 170gr Hornady bullets. 44 was not bad, 45 better, then the (to me) mind blowing-make me grin sub 1in 46, then at 47 bigger group, 48 bigger yet. I just shot the rounds after the 46 cuz I had them there, the ones built with 46gr is as close to perfect as I can even dream of. I haven't tried these again yet, been messing with a brand new 308 that I can't get to shoot for **** with anything. It's a heck of a world when a new rifle is so out done by a World War 2 vintage/ seen some use/ $189 dollar gun! The 189 included all the extras too. A local old gunsmith had 4 of these (I bought 2). If I was flush, I'd go down and get the rest! The old Lyman's book (46th ed) has a 170 round nose using the 4064 (46-51grains). My 49th ed doesn't list 170gr (only 175) and no 4064. Also my bullets are spitz. Please don't inform me that I can't use a recipe for RN with pointed! No signs of press at 48gr. I will only shoot the 46/170 anyway. I can't imagine anything doing any better. Oh, I guess I got a little off track with my brag story (lucked out finding such a great load so easy). Can you see how I can trim down my case making process? (no pun intended)
     
  15. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    OH NO!!! Don't use perfetly good .30-06 brass??? I am just a litle biased. I have a .25-06 and a .30-06 so to me .270 and .280 are the ones that have no other use to me.

    To neck up, I clean, aneal (to prevent splits), chamfer the mouths and lube inside and out. Since I start small (.277) I progressively neck up. .284 (7mm), .308 then 8mm (.323). To save some aggravation later, chamber check the brass to make sure you have set the shoulder back enough.
    Then I rough trim using Dremel cut off wheels and final trim on the Forster trimmer.

    I always use a red marker to color the case head of any brass that has been "changed" to a different caliber. An 8mm round head stamped .30-06 may chamber in a .30-06 rifle but could be disasterous if fired.
     
  16. Rosko Packer

    Rosko Packer New Member

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    When I first was given equip and supplys (my favorite uncle passed and left it to me), there was a pile of new unprimed,once fired, and milt 30-06. Since I can be kind of a dumbass, I gave away some brass that I thought I had no use for. Guess what, one of the things I gave away was 8 boxes of new unprimed 25-06, 4 Win and 4 federal (later learned they were matched lots). I also gave away a bunch of 25cal bullets, Nosler part, 120gr,some that were I think 100s, and some 80 I think. I was supposed to get some goodies in trade later, but the person turned out to be what I'm starting to believe is typical untrustworthy scum. My bad. Trust but verified right? Is there a source that gives info on all the brass that can be formed from other brass? I thought about trying to make 270 from 30-06. One source said 270 is too long, another said this length difference was no big deal. On another topic. Have you ever seen how modern and efficient looking the 7.5X55 swiss is? Why isn't there more done with this round? It seems like it could be made to outdo anything in the class. I have a bunch of the brass that is the bulk surplus (comes in neat little white boxes wrapped together in paper). I would love to do something with this great stuff, but it has those f-ing Berdan primers. Hasn't someone invented some way to redo or undo these? I found that once upon a time you could by the Berdans, but I can't find them anywhere. Any thoughts on why someone doesn't import these or produce them here?
     
  17. jpattersonnh

    jpattersonnh Active Member

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    Berdan primed, they do suck. 7.5x55 is an outstanding cartridge, no doubt. The issue is the action of the rifles. the 1911 and K31 won't handle greater pressures. Since the .308 already exists, why chamber a new rifle for a obsolete caliber? The Swedes, Swiss and French were all ahead of their times w/ 6.5x55, 7.5x55, 7.5x54. Just think of what would have happened if the U.S. had actually chambered the M1 Garand for the .276 Pederson as it was originally designed! 30.06 would have been obsolete! The truly wonderful part about the 7.5x55 and 54 is that they push the bullet at moderate speeds, so they tend to be very accurate. If they were hot rodded they would have the same issues w/ accuracy as higher velocity rounds. I load 165gr Combined Technology .308 to 2550fps in 7.5x55 and 2500fps in 7.5x54 using IMR4064. Using the same powder and bullet weight I get 2650 w/ 7.62x51 loads. All are very accurate. W/ the Swiss rifles, one reason they are so accurate w/ GP11 ammo is that it is all match grade. They are the only military that fielded a match grade FMJ for every rifle and soldier. They seemed to over engineer everything, like a fine watch.
     
  18. Rosko Packer

    Rosko Packer New Member

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    7.5

    Are you loading the Swiss from new or boxer primed brass? I read how one guy was plucking the Berdans out with a little tool, then actually redoing the inside of the pocket to use Boxers. Looked like a ton of work, but this milt surplus stuff is sure beautifull looking brass. Another guy showed how to make an outfit that blew the Berdan out with water pressure (a cylinder and plunger that you hit with a hammer!). Since I have never been able to find Berdan primers for sale anywhere, I'll just hope that this surplus stuff stays somewhat inexpensive. It is just such a shame that this nice brass is pretty much useless except for scrap.
     
  19. jpattersonnh

    jpattersonnh Active Member

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    If you try the hydraulic method, it will make a big mess. I use boxer primed. nny. Prvi partizan brass is pretty good. I bought 100 pieces of norma brass a few years ago and it is night and day as far as accuracy. I also found a box of Graf bras that measures the same as Norma. I had paid $9.00 per 50. Even years ago Norma was .90 a case. Norma is close to $1.50 a piece now.
     
  20. Rosko Packer

    Rosko Packer New Member

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    Thanks for all the great info. The hydro method did look like a mess, and you still have the Berdan pocket. It seems like someone could make some $ by selling Berdans here, but the haz fee and restrictions are probably the killer. At $1.50 for brass, I'll just try to rat-hole as much of the surp stuff as I can. As you said, it does work very well (my hunting days are behind me so the FMJs don't matter). It still doesn't break the bank, I guess my biggest problem is the great looking brass that's left that I can't do anything with! I don't have trouble with a big box of other assorted milt crud (most of it steel and copper-washed etc.) but the 7.5X55?- What a waste!