Bird Shot IS NOT FOR SELF DEFENSE

Discussion in 'Concealed Carrying & Personal Protection' started by Jesse17, May 20, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Jesse17

    Jesse17 New Member

    1,471
    0
    0
    Took the wife out looking for her concealed carry revolver yesterday. The azzhat behind the counter told her she should keep bird shot in the first two chambers. That way it's easier to pull the trigger if you "know you're not going to kill the person, then if they keep coming you have HP in the rest of the chambers" :mad:

    I waited until we left then explained to her (LadyHawk) why he was a moron. If he's far enough away that you don't feel the need to 'kill him' you're going to jail if you shoot. On the other hand, if he's 3' from you you've got to pull the trigger 3 times before he takes away your gun.

    Oh yeah, the azzhat's was bragging about his qualification to excrete this piece of pelosi advice...he teaches Hunter Safety. :rolleyes:
     
  2. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

    23,972
    1
    0
    So by that rationale, would you allow someone to shoot something like your dog or your dinner with birdshot from, say, 15 or 18 feet??

    Because while it would not be my first choice, I would also prefer not to take a blast of it directly in the chest and face to test your belief.

    Smaller bullets that hit are always better than big bullets that miss.

    Just saying

    JD
     

  3. dog2000tj

    dog2000tj New Member

    8,176
    2
    0
    I've been giving some thought about home defense using a shotgun. Although I would have zero regard for any intruder I wonder about the collateral damage that may occur from shotgun blasts. I would hate to have some shot go through the common wall into the neighboring condo. I'd also hate to ruin any of my painted walls too :eek:

    So I have seriously considered the use of rubber slugs. I'm not too worried that they are supposed "non lethal" rounds. If 3 or 4 of them do not stop an intruder I'm sure a buttstock to the bridge of the nose will ;)

    As for bird shot, I don't know too many that can withstand a blast of it to the face and not be incapacitated
     
  4. Jesse17

    Jesse17 New Member

    1,471
    0
    0
    I agreed with that.

    But, this guys theory wasn't based on her being able to hit her target or not, it was based on him saying she wouldn't be able to pull the trigger, but this way she would "know that she wasn't going to kill the guy". I'm of a mind set that if you don't intend to kill you don't pull the trigger.

    And while bird shot may even result in a lethal wound, it's in not my first choice either, and therefore I'm not going to recommend that it's what someone else do. If I won't trust my life to it, I'm not going to tell someone else they should.
     
  5. hiwall

    hiwall Active Member

    4,268
    21
    38
    To my mind the birdshot idea falls in line with the warning shot idea. When I teach self-defense and someone asks about warning shots, I always answer that they are a good idea as long as they hit center-of-mass.
     
  6. EDF924

    EDF924 New Member

    14
    0
    0
    Seems to me that if you are in fear for your life and drop the hammer then you want to stop your attacker, permanently.

    Even wounding an attacker leaves someone to testify against you and attorneys have shown their ability to create very outrageous but convincing arguments.

    FWIW
     
  7. danf_fl

    danf_fl Retired Supporter

    12,358
    26
    48
    The idea of self defense is to stop the attack. Sometimes, just having a weapon to show is enough to stop it.

    I don't like to explain what happened.
     
  8. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

    21,328
    174
    63
    Not that anyone asked me for my opinion (and that has never stopped me anyway)

    1. There is no such thing as a NON LETHAL firearm projectile. Term is "Less Lethal". Folks have died after being shot with blank ammo, beanbags, birdshot, and the wadding of a shotshell.

    2. There is no humane way to shoot anyone with a firearm.

    3. Birdshot is for birds. Unless you are trapped in an Alfred Hotchcock movie, lose the birdshot.

    4. If I am being attacked, my goal is not to kill him (it). It is to STOP my attacker. If the sucker bleeds out or dies of shock 10 minutes after he killed me, that just takes all the fun out of the day.

    5. The pattern of a shotgun at 15 ft is MUCH smaller than you might think, unles you have a shotgun with a 6 inch barrel. They put sights on them for a reason, and they will not scour a hallway clean of intruders if you point in their general direction and pull the trigger.

    6. I DO have handgun shot loads- 22 Mag, 38 Special, and 45 ACP. For snakes. At 10 feet. people are much thicker, and require something heavier to penetrate.
     
  9. canebrake

    canebrake New Member

    21,833
    2
    0
    The term "azzhat behind the counter" doesn't begin to classify this idiot!

    He has no grasp of the gravity of a personal defense situation. He obviously has never experienced said situation because he's still breathing. (More like taking up space.)

    I've said it before and here I go again. "It's a pesonal defense weapon for Christ sake, NOT a Public Service Announcement."

    If your "GO" criteria is met, the job is to stop the threat, NOT scare or persuade it to go away!

    I think the true test one must pass prior to any thoughts or actions are to proceed to personal defense with a firearm is an affirmative response to this question: "Do I have the moral mettle to take a life?"

    If you can not muster a rapid response in the positive, you should rethink the use of firearms for PD. Get a dog, preferably a BIG dog.

    Jesse, you should have asked the azzclown if he is familiar with the training term "shoot to failure"? It has nothing to do with firearm malfunction but rather threat remediation.

    IOW, "Don't shoot the BG until you think he's dead, shoot him until he thinks he's dead." This is black and white. He wants to kill you and your response must be to stop him from being successful! If that means shoot him to the deck and continue to shoot until his clothes catch fire, so be it.

    Use your head (your most powerful weapon) and only draw and fire your weapon to save you or someone’s life. This is the only righteous shooting. Anything else will find you in a cage or a box. Long before you put yourself in the ‘shoot’ position, you better have completed all the legal requirements that allow you to be there.

    Read this before you decide to carry, and if you have, read it again. It's that important!

    We are neither a vigilante nor a hired gun, just a survivalist.
     
  10. orangello

    orangello New Member

    19,156
    0
    0
    What? Birdshot was good enough for VP Cheney.
     
  11. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

    23,972
    1
    0
    I don't agree with the forum on this one, so I am jumping back in.

    The guy behind the counter might be an ASSHAT, I think that's what you mean with azzhat, but this forum does allow some big kid words so I am using mine. :p. We don't know for sure, we have your word on that, but maybe he was coached to say these sorts of things. We don't know.

    Fact number one is the human female conditions' NATURAL instinct is NOT to kill. In fact this is found throughout nature when mom's of one species adopt other species that could grow to be a danger to themselves and their offspring. It's a biological trait, they are care GIVERS first.

    Second fact is that the Israel has had problems with women in combat since at least 1986 that I can personally recall from the news of a raid gone wrong as a kid when all that mess with Libya was happening and The Bank again is dispute.

    So this guy might very well have been towing the company line in telling your significant other that using birdshot will "wound" and not kill.

    You might be married to the next Sarah Connor, although Ineffable has already claimed the young John Connor as his offspring, so you might be or you might not be.

    Having said that the guy behind the counter doesn't know her from Bambi. For all he knew, she was the daughter of Haight-Ashbury Plankholders and would NEVER take a human life. :rolleyes:

    Now. Birdshot and distance.

    Question. Do you honestly know what the term 12 and 20 GUAGE mean in relation to caliber??

    In layman's terms? A 12 gauge is a 1/12th POUND of lead that fits into the weapons bore. So, in 12 guage buckshot, this means there are 12 balls of lead weighing approximately 1 ounce a piece and are 0.729" in diameter.

    Birdshot is a variable of that same formula. #4 birdshot is 0.129" in diameter, but the quantity is still the same overall weight as the initial 1/12th of a pound, or about 12 ounces.

    So, a shotgun doesn't expand much in 15 or 20 feet?

    Good!!!

    So we have thus:

    #4 Birdshot is about .13" in diameter and weighs a mere 3.2 grains each. A 2 3/4" shell with a 1 5/8 ounce shot charge, there are 221 pellets with a velocity of 1250 fps flying in close formation your way. :eek:

    If you think THAT is something to sneeze at, I would encourage you to pick up pig head, or a full chicken with the skin on, pace off 8-10 paces and see what damage is done by "merely birdshot"

    JD
     
  12. rjd3282

    rjd3282 New Member

    3,852
    0
    0
    You are correct JD if we were talking about a shotgun. But I believe the OP was talking about a revolver. Not nearly as much shot and if we are talking 38 special not nearly as much velocity either.

    Of course I wouldn't want to be shot by either but if I had a choice of being shot with a 158 gr. slug from a revolver or being shot with the bird shot I'd rather take my chances with the bird shot.

    Then there is the argument of the right ammo or caliber for the job. If I posted on this forum that I went deer hunting with a 22 LR I'd be blasted for not using the correct weapon for the animal being shot. Legality not withstanding. I think the same rules should apply for SD.
     
  13. wmille01

    wmille01 New Member

    508
    0
    0
    I have to disagree as well bird shot can be used as self defense ammo out of a shot gun, it may not kill them but getting a dose of rock salt to the chest and face will pretty much make them not want to be there. Turkey loads really mess people up, 3 1/2 mag to the chest make people have a bad day plus the barrel length upping the velocity to the shot.

    Still the bang from a revolver mixed in with the pain from getting hit with the pellets still might scare the living hell and hurt like hell, it still has a chance just people using 22's for self defense.
     
  14. danf_fl

    danf_fl Retired Supporter

    12,358
    26
    48
    Okay, I'll admit that I have birdshot in the wife's revolver. It gives her a "secure feeling" knowing that she has something for snakes.

    Her opinion (and I asked) is that the .38Spl birdshot loaded revolver is only for the serpents. Anything else that needs to be shot will be with my other firearms.

    Again, this is only one woman's opinion.
     
  15. IGETEVEN

    IGETEVEN New Member

    8,358
    4
    0
    I concur with the above and I am not going to get into a pissing contest about birdshot and buckshot. It seems to be brought up over and over again whether it is a good enough for a SD or HD round for a shotgun.

    I have seen what #4 and #6 BIRDSHOT does to a human being at 14 feet, 2 shots, one in the face, the other to the neck and chest. I can personally say with confidence, that said person is not with us today.

    Human beings are very fragile and emotional creatures. It does not take as much as one would think, to bring one down.
     
  16. canebrake

    canebrake New Member

    21,833
    2
    0
    +1 Jack

    Some advice of Jelly Bryce; "Son, if you shoot a man in the nuts.....he will leave you alone."

    Profound Jelly, and yet prophetic! Any male members question the validity of Jelly's statement?



    In "Shooting to Live" Fairbairn and Sykes documented six hundred and sixty six (666 :confused:) gunfights inside of a twelve year period. They saw this one phenomenon so often that they put it in writing "If you shoot a man in the gut, he will most likely drop what is in his hand."
     
  17. Jesse17

    Jesse17 New Member

    1,471
    0
    0
    I apologize. I knew I was talking about her revolver, I must have just assumed you guys knew what I was thinking too. :eek: I should have made that clear.

    She was looking to purchase a S&W mod. 60 LadySmith in .357 because even though she planed on probably using .38 spl. she wanted the extra weight of the steel frame vs. the light weight LCR.

    When I'm out geocaching or the like in BLM/state land, I've actually carried my S&W mod. 36 similar to the way the guy was talking. I carry a shot shell in cylinder 1 & 3, and WC (should be JHP but I have a pile of WC) in cylinders 2, 4, & 5. But I don't have any illusions that I'm going to stop a cat or person with the shot shell. I figure my chances of needing the gun are a lot higher for rattle snake than any form of mamal, and therefore have the shot shells. If I need the gun on a cat or person, I will cycle through the shot shell and fire the WC without even hesitating to see if the shot shell had any affect on their attitude. That's the plan, but I've never had to use it.

    But, I'm sure as shoot not going carry shot shells in my daily carry piece.
     
  18. rifleman1

    rifleman1 New Member

    2,007
    1
    0
    birdshot in my opionion good for a shotgun in a close quarters home defense situation but for a handgun or even a shotgun outside of the home i wouldnt recomend it just my opionion..
     
  19. WDB

    WDB New Member

    3,977
    2
    0
    Bird shot in a pistol is of little use except for snakes. While it might slow or redirect the BG it may not. Why give those few seconds between when you draw your firearm and get on target to a round that is at best a less than leathal round in a pistol? Yes it might work in the right situation but we know a FMJ ot JHP will will get the job done in most situations.

    I have some birdshot rounds in 45 (the favorite round of the forum), I got them awhile back for my S&W 1955, for snakes while hiking. Never used them. Willing to put them to the test if anyone is able to set up a wet phone book test, I'll send them to you. You will need three large phone books, soak them in water for 24 hrs. I'll provide the 45 bird shot you will provide FMJ and JHP, distance will be ten feet. PM if you think this is an effective round and we can set up a thread for your test.
     
  20. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

    23,972
    1
    0
    Mea Culpa! :eek:

    Handgun section. :eek:

    I was reading and responding from my Windows Phone and didn't read the section, just the thread.

    I do agree that birdshot in a revolver is less than effective.

    Apologies all around.

    JD
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.