Best and worst

Discussion in '1911 Forum' started by mr1911, Aug 22, 2009.

  1. mr1911

    mr1911 New Member

    109
    0
    0
    I'm interested to know what your picks are for best and worst 1911 manufacturers, don't just post horror stories about a lemon you got one time, I mean actual brand names that the collective consensus has come to conclude is a good or bad manufacturer.

    My top three;
    Kimber
    Para-ord
    Springfield

    Why?
    These companies make the best average bang for you buck pistols out there, and even though they've had a few issues from time to time and some other companies make fancier-high end examples and others make cheaper low cost models, their quality vs. cost ratio is what I would consider fair and balanced.

    My bottom three;
    U.S.;
    Thompson/Kahr
    Detonics
    AMT

    Why?
    Over the years these companies have been more hit and miss than a blind man at an IDPA match!

    Import;
    ANYTHING from the Phillipines or China
    (don't get me started on the B.S. about their metal quality supposedly being better than most U.S. guns, I'm a tool&die machinist and it's all B.S., trust me on this one)
    I'm not particularly fond of Brazillian Tuarus' either, but I'll leave them alone since there is such an overwhelming concensus that Brazillian made Springfield and Tuarus guns are great (which I have a very hard time believing due to my past experiences with them, notice I did include Springfield in my top three).

    P.S.
    Interesting note, right now I only own Colts and so does my dad, (I'm not counting my home built guns) notice Colts were not listed. Colt almost went on my bottom three due to the same reasons I listed under the other U.S. manufacturers, but Colts nearly century long history of making the 1911 non-stop and their reasonable pricing saved them from being rated by the somewhat spotty reputation they have gained the last two decades.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2009
  2. NGIB

    NGIB New Member

    7,143
    1
    0
    You're certainly entitled to your opinion. There's always a problem with what's best and what's worst as it's completely subjective. I've probably owned over 2 dozen 1911s in the past few years of most of the major brands. Honestly I've never had a bad one that didn't do what it's supposed to do.

    I don't understand your disdain for the PI and Chinese made guns. Rock Islands are very good pistols for their price with great customer service and lots of supporters. Norinco's are among the few brands that the custom 1911 smiths will use for "build" guns. This is a fact, not an opinion. While you say the steel quality & strength is BS, many, many other highly respected 1911 gurus disagree with you.

    Spend a little time on the dedicated 1911 forums and you'll see that every brand has it's good and bad points - just depends on what YOU are looking for. You chose Kimber for the top spot on your list yet they probably have more "bad press" than all the other brands combined. I have a 1st series Gold Match and it's a fantastic gun but many later models Kimbers have problems with rust and "weak" finishes.

    The bottom line is the 1911 is a fine platform and there are many good ones out there. Right now I only have five, Colt, Kimber, S&W, Springer, and Norinco - and they all perform as they should.

    Question for you mr1911, how many do you (have you) personally owned and spent time with and what brands were they?

    Here's a link to a thread on the m1911 forums that discusses the steel quality used by Norinco. Pay particular attention to the post by the administrator of this forum. I tend to like research over opinions...

    http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=15245
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2009

  3. 753X0

    753X0 New Member

    219
    0
    0
    Before you get to proud of your Norincos, you should know that this company also sells the following to countries such as Iran. Who inturn sneaks them across the border to be fired at our troops, me included.

    ETA: I'm like to add that I think this company is not the norm for China, alot of things are made in their country that are just fine, (although I'd like to see our trade deficit more balanced).
    Norinco, is what I'm talking about. It gets pretty demoralizing to have these weapons fired at you, (complete with the their markings)., and then see people in your own country supporting them.

    # QBZ-95, an assault rifle
    #Norinco-designed QBZ-95 rifle.
    # QBB 95, a squad automatic weapon version of the QBZ-95
    #Type 56, a clone of the Russian AK47
    # Type 86S bullpup assault rifle
    # Type 88 sniper rifle
    # Type 69 RPG anti-armor rocket launcher, a clone of the RPG-7
    # Type 98 anti-tank rocket 120 mm anti-tank rocket system
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2009
  4. Gojubrian

    Gojubrian New Member

    6,262
    5
    0
    Where do SW1911's fall into the mix?
     
  5. mr1911

    mr1911 New Member

    109
    0
    0
    LOL,....sorry didn't mean to step on some toes, just looking for some friendly exchange on where people stand on what particular brands.

    I've owned about a half dozen 1911s and shot/handled/inspected at least a dozen or more various brands.

    I have built a few 1911s over the years too. Being a tool & die machinist with a degree in manufacturing technology gives you quite a critical eye and feel for what goes into a pistol that most people tend to miss completely, it's just the nature of the work.

    As for the 1911 forum post, that was EXACTLY what I was reffering to, I've read the forum posts on Chinese and Phillipino steels for years and can tell you that what really needs to solve the debate over them is a sample inspected by a RELIABLE metallurgist. I've machined import steels that were labeled as "XYZ" steel and can tell you that China, the Phillipines, etc. can call it "ordnance or tool steel" all day long and it doesn't make it so, the U.S. and Europe, even Japan have MUCH higher and/or different quality control standards for what qualifies as "XYZ" steel, the same goes for heat treating/surface hardening,...etc, etc.

    Sorry for my "opinion", I know they really are annoying when they differ from YOUR own OPINION, but I wasn't trying to start a fight, I guess the mods can delete this topic if it's a problem.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2009
  6. mr1911

    mr1911 New Member

    109
    0
    0
    The only reason I didn't mention S&W as a top pick, was I think they are slightly over priced for what they are and I've never liked the external extractor, I was really glad when Kimber finaly went back to the G.I. spec internal extractors.

    P.S.
    I'm allways amazed how touchy people get about any critisizm of their Norincos,...it doesn't bug me one bit to have someone critisize my ol' rattle trap beater Colts,....I'll join right in with 'em and joke about it,......LOL!
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2009
  7. Gojubrian

    Gojubrian New Member

    6,262
    5
    0
    Well, I don't have a 1911, but it will be my next purchase. I was settled on getting a kimber pro cdp II, but $1200!! Sheesh, it's hard to come up with and stuff keeps coming up!! :eek:

    Now, I'd really like to keep it under 1k.

    What do you think about S&W's or Sigs? Where does colt fall?

    BTW, being a machinist myself I can respect your opinions. ;)
     
  8. Gojubrian

    Gojubrian New Member

    6,262
    5
    0
    Is the external extractor some sort of quality issue or just a personal preference?
     
  9. mr1911

    mr1911 New Member

    109
    0
    0
    Gojubrian;

    I was waiting to see if my good friend "mr kimber" was going to comment, he has possibly one of the most factory perfect custom II's I've ever seen or shot, but I'll let him discuss that.

    Right now after the Obama hysteria, Kimbers seem to have been jacked up price wise at the dealer level, so even though normaly I would recomend getting the Kimber custom, I would now recomend the newly introduced Para-Ord "G.I. expert", it is a serious best buy in my opinion at only $600.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2009
  10. mr1911

    mr1911 New Member

    109
    0
    0
    Gojubrian;

    S&Ws are used at "GUNSITE", SIGs are used buy some of our military shooting teams they are great guns, just a little higher priced than I'd like.

    Colt is making some decent guns as allways and prices are fair, but it'll take a BIG change in the companies attitude toward production and comercial sales before I would recomend one as a first 1911.

    Now forgive me, as it is my "opinion", but for a first 1911 I like;
    Kimber "custom",
    Para's new "G.I. expert"
    and Springfield's old stand buy the "mil-spec" pistol, note: this is NOT the same as a Springer "G.I." model, the "G.I." is a little rough around the edges,...tends to need a lot of tunning and finish work, but if you are a machinist like me you might enjoy it.

    I like the G.I. extractor not because it's the way "John Browning wanted it", as some think, but as a practical point it's a one piece internal unit, very trouble free once properly adjusted. The external extractors (which were actualy on an early prototype) are multi-piece and external, lots of small pieces to break, jam, get lost, etc. in a combat situation, notice that Kimber abandoned them and went back to the G.I. unit.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2009
  11. mr1911

    mr1911 New Member

    109
    0
    0
    I was also thinking about best and worst mags, I've had good guns that wouldn't run because of a bad magazine before.

    My top three;
    Wilson "47D"
    Chip McCormic "shooting star"
    Mecgar "4508"

    These are good dependable mags, yes I've heard complaints about each model, but they've all worked great for me without an issue, the CMC "shooting stars" tend to have the most favorable pricing. CMC and MecGar make mags for a lot of well known 1911 manufacturers.

    Honorable mention;
    I've heard a lot of good things about Metalform, but never used them.

    Worst;
    I've bought a few decent holsters and belts from "Triple K" in the past, but their "G.I." 1911 magazines are absolutely the worst mags I've ever attempted to use in my life, they fell apart so fast they should have been labled "bic" on the side because they weren't re-usable after they were emptied!
     
  12. 753X0

    753X0 New Member

    219
    0
    0
    I'll 2nd that.
     
  13. mr1911

    mr1911 New Member

    109
    0
    0
    While we're at it, I'll 2nd that!!!!!!!
     
  14. 753X0

    753X0 New Member

    219
    0
    0
    Thank you, mr1911.
    I just wish the people buying these products from Norinco could keep in mind that alot of our troops are coming home either dead or missing limbs because of this Co. They probably don't even realize there's is a connection.
    Please, I urge everyone to at least do Google search and see what this Co. has done, you'll see what I mean and more.
    They where making the Scud missiles, components and sending them into Iraq, When were fighting!!!!!
    They are still sending as many weapons as they can across the border to this day.
     
  15. mr1911

    mr1911 New Member

    109
    0
    0
    The ban on Norinco was probably the only thing the Clinton era did regarding guns that I agreed with, I'm allways amazed that there are fans of them in this country, ignorance is bliss I guess.

    God speed 753XO.
     
  16. NGIB

    NGIB New Member

    7,143
    1
    0
    If you get bogged down in a political aspect of products - many would be disqualified using the Norinco logic. As all Chinese companies are basically state owned - you would have to quit buying ALL Chinese products. In point of fact, we the US, sold many a weapon that is used against us - especially in the middle east.

    Back to the subject at hand. You didn't step on my toes at all - I'm just pointing out that your opinions are just that - opinions. Some are going to agree with you and some aren't. I don't "love" my Norinco any more than my other 1911s - they are all functional tools to me. I try to share my experiences with the guns I own, shoot and work on and claim no expertise for any that I haven't personally dealt with.

    For someone wanting to get into the 1911 arena, I have absolutely no problem recommending any of the Armscor made guns - very good quality at a reasonable price. Yes, the frames are cast instead of forged; however, unless you're putting many thousands of rounds through them yearly - it really doesn't matter.

    As far as S&W goes, I think they make a great 1911 but many purists really don't like the external extractor. Due to the really crappy job that Kimber did with external extractors, many assume that the S&W is in the same category - not true. S&W has been building external extractor semi-autos for many years and they got it right. I consider my S&W the equal of any of my others in terms of quality. Price wise they stack up with the other mid-grade 1911s quite well. I paid $650 for my lightly used stainless model.

    The bottom line is that the 1911 in its many flavors is a great platform. I actually agree with mr1911 that the Springer Mil-Spec (not the GI) is one of the best entry-level models out there...
     
  17. NGIB

    NGIB New Member

    7,143
    1
    0
    Lets see, German, Italian, and Russian guns have also been used against US troops at some point. More AKs have been used against us than probably any other gun - do we ban them as well? Quit buying Sigs and Berettas?

    I am a veteran myself and have a son currently serving in the Army - and he has already completed a tour in Iraq. I'd rather not be called ignorant nor have my patriotism called into question - I come here to discuss guns. You mr1911 are the one making this personal...
     
  18. 753X0

    753X0 New Member

    219
    0
    0
    NGIB, I'm not aware of Sig or Beretta supplying Extremists and the Taliban with weapons. I they were, my opinion would be the same as that of Norinco. Who is supplying them covertly to this day.
    I don't have anything against firearms manufactured in other countries, just the ones that are actively engaging in aiding our enemies. Like I wrote before, do a Google search and look. They, Norinco, was caught redhanded smuggling components for Chem. Scud missiles into Iraq while we were at war with them. Do some research.
    I'm talking about the present day, not wars that happened long ago. Sure we sold a lot of countries weapons, but we didn't have a crystal ball at the time, it seemed like the right choice. Hindsight is 20/20.
    Considering your Sig. line and the fact that you had a son on duty over there, I'm very surprised at your opinion.:confused:
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2009
  19. mr1911

    mr1911 New Member

    109
    0
    0
    I was thinking the same thing, Norinco is actively at pressent in the terrorist arms trade, comparing it to a modern Italian made Barretta or German made SIG just because we were at war with those countries more than half a century ago is quite a stretch.

    NGIB, my statement was generalized toward no one in particular, sorry for stepping on your toes again. if I wanted to call you out by name I would have,....like I said before sorry for stating my opinion I know that those other than our own are never based on any facts simply because they are different from our own.

    America is a free country where a person can love their Norinco or Armscor, and people can get online and talk about why they don't like them or preffer another brand, sorry if this offends the "opinions" of others, but they are also free to snipe all they want or go somewhere else and discuss things that don't offend them.......
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2009
  20. Gojubrian

    Gojubrian New Member

    6,262
    5
    0
    Buying or owning a norinco is not supporting terrorism. I, for one. do not research every detail of what manufacturer does before purchasing. I simply look for the best quality and price I can find.