Beating the horse some more

Discussion in 'NFA/Class 3 & FFL Discussion' started by MobileMarine, May 11, 2011.

  1. MobileMarine

    MobileMarine New Member

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    Im going to try and ask two things to keep from starting another thread . 1 how in the hell can the russian kid on youtube get 2 aa12's ? I thought they were for military only ? I want one soo bad . If I wanted to start manufactoring c3 firearms on a very small scale @ first what would need to be done ? You know , make some ''demo only '' weapons and ask a stupidly high price for them . And or retrofit certian guns , Im up to par a lil on the pre-post 86' ban b/s but I have not studied it too much . I am just facinated on the workings and the timing on full auto guns . Is it even legal to make - convert or own say a f/a trigger group but not the whole gun just for study or observation purpose ? I see bushmaster full auto sears on gbroker all the time , i know there is much more to it than just a sear but I even see them for sks and they were never produced in a full auto version . You know most guns were and are punched out by the thousands BUT someone put a lot of time and effort into building the first one . . The guys here @ our small gun shop want to sell c3 also but the man wont sign off on it , can I/we bypass him ? And before any one jumps off @ me IM not a troll or atf or whatever else , I have too much to lose to bypass the system . I have avoided post in this section b/c the last place was so uptight about it , like its somekind of hush hush secret and unless you have a c3 your not good enough to talk about it
     
  2. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    Whoo! DUDE! PARAGRAPHS! :p

    First, to be engaged in the manufacture of firearms for sale, you must be licensed by the BATFE as a manufacturer. Then there is what is known an an SOT- Special Occupational Tax- and being licensed as a manufacturer of NFA (National Firearms Act) firearms- that's machineguns for the purpose of our discussion.

    Can you convert a semi to full? That's called manufacturing a machinegun. Only with the licenses I described above. Without a license, it is called confinement for 10 years in a Federal prison, and a fine of up to $250,000. PS- meet your new roomy- Animal.

    Can you possess certain parts that make a gun full auto? Depends on the parts. Can you possess the parts needed to convert, AND an unconverted rifle? No. Called constructive possession.

    Full auto weapons not ALREADY registered as being owned by a private citizen in May 1986 CANNOT be transferred to a private citizen. Newly manufactured full autos can only be transferred to a military agency, or a law enforcement agency, or to another Dealer in machineguns.

    Which is WHY full autos that are LEGAL are so stinking high. They don't make them anymore. A new M16 for transfer to a police agency- about $975. One that could be legally transferred to a private citizen- $12,000 to $16,000.

    As far as the Russian kid on YouTube- I have no clue.
     

  3. Rmason2008

    Rmason2008 New Member

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    How difficult would it be to become a licensed dealer in machine guns? Is it possible to get a license as a dealer using your home as the place of business? I could see making a hobby of buying and selling machine guns if it meant being able to possess the weapons legally.
     
  4. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    It could be possible, depending on the zoning in the area where you own your home, to apply and get a license to sell weaponry.

    I do not know if the standard Class 3 license would allow you to purchase (extremely expensive) full auto weapons. If it did, most of the high end stuff is imported, which makes it that much more expensive.

    Even if you could afford the inventory AND you had a license to sell, I believe you could only sell to Military or Law Enforecement, which is a bit of a restricted market to say the very least.

    I am NO expert in this area, I can't even say I have played one on the Interwebz because I JUST filed for my Firearm's Trust for a suppressor last week, but I do know that applying for and getting a class 3 license, regardless of intent (sales, manufacture, etc), is a painfully long and expensive operation to undertake.

    If you were serious, I would look at getting a firearms lawyer involved. They can help cut some red tape by doing things right the first time, knowing who and what to do, not to mention setting up protection limits for you.
     
  5. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    your talking about fpsrussia. he is buddies with a class 3 dealer and they take em out to make those vids.


    in order for a sot manufacturer to legally make a new experimental firearm for research there has to be a LE or military agency requesting the firearm for study. at the point with the letter of inent the sot submits the paperwork for the nfa permission waits a few weeks for approval then the sot can make the weapon. once made paperwork is submitted for transfer to the le military and another wait for approval. it isnt for the educational purposes of the sot :)

    so you cant just get a sot/manufacture license and crank out FA firearms to play with.

    the semi-auto aa12 which can be purchased are considered destructive devices the full autos do not exist as legally transferable samples as none were ever registered pre-86 for civilian ownership. only premay dealer samples.

    there are transferable register sears for certain types of guns that when properly licensed via the batfe the owner can convert a semi auto to full auto configuration. there are specific rules concerning host recievers. common ones are drop in auto sear kits for ar15s and hk trigger packs. there are real negatives about them as opposed to registered recievers.

    registered sears cannot be replaced if lost or damaged while recievers can be repaired if damaged. it takes more than a bit of skill to convert certain host weapons.

    this isnt a secret organization there isnt a mythical right of passage :)

    im currently going through the proccess of being approved for ownership of a colt m16A1 and a suppressor there isnt any secret handshake just extra hoops to jump through and a sht ton of waiting.
     
  6. MobileMarine

    MobileMarine New Member

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    In other words it would be more cost wise to just fork it out for a f/a gun and be done with it ? I just think it would be cool to
    A: come out with the next ak-47
    B: Sell f/a guns for a real price
    C: repeal the 86 ban ! yea right !
    I take it the auto sear kits on g/b for under 100.00 maybe some undercover atf buff doing some side jobs . I
    Im just confused on how redmax can take a semi tommy , disgrace it like they did and use it as a ''TACTICAL'' gun for the squad , yea right that gun is sitting is a private gun safe a bet of some big whig . And second how they got away with doing the ma'duec , that was for him and it came as a semi kit . I know its tv but why ? why must they do that to us .
    I have many friends - family friends and customers with DHS , retired spec ops , state patrol ect , for some reason they all look to me to blow spit up or to show up with a cool gun , im just running out of options here .
    Does anyone know about how much all the taxes are and if they are annual ? I think what is was trying to compare this to is buying IE a atv on your state resale number for tax free and just '' never sell it ''
     
  7. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    Nfa rules pretty much exclude private ownership of new made machine guns period.

    It is cheaper in tthe long run to just buy a transferable mg. The tax is one time 200$ for private ownership. For a ffl license its ongoing atf inspections which will smoke out those using a ffl as a means of private ownership. Part of a ffl means you must use it to buy and then sell. Exception being a c&r license. There is a pretty big yearly fee to keep certain ffls active.

    It is legal for a registered reciever owner to buy nfa parts to repair their guns so you will see cheap parts for sale.
     
  8. MobileMarine

    MobileMarine New Member

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    I have a real good friend / mentor in the marine industry , we have spent countless nights b/sing over b/s . He has no kids to give his guns to to when he passes on and I have made it clear to him that I will be moe than happy to purches everything he has as it will be well taken care of . BUT I have a real good feeling he has some class three stuff , registered or not ? I dont know . If there is a f/a ak or uzi in the mix and they got '' passed down'' what would be the red tape on that ? I have even had the hint that he has HAD a few that were not even registered , not even sure how that was possible unless it was a backyard brew trigger job. Just wondering what I may be getting myself into one day . would it be the same as buying one today just with out the 30k?
     
  9. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    as for the unregistered ones, if they exist, destroy the recievers or f/a parts some machine guns the reciever is the part some the sear some the bolt some the trigger group. just depends on what they are.

    as for the legal ones, if they exist, they can be inherited as any other property if your home state allows possession and you do the proper paperwork and pay the proper taxes. the estate retains possession until you recieve the stamps. any interstate transfers must go from SOT to SOT.

    the easiest way is transfer the legal nfa guns into a trust with you as the beneficiary. you will need to consult a good attourney familiar with nfa items. have your bud get rid of any not so kosher items as they can cause long delays in inheretance. if he is caught with them if they exist the batfe will confiscate all his guns legal or not.
     
  10. orangello

    orangello New Member

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    I would rather get pulled over with a 2 pound slab of crack than an unregistered FA firearm, personally, but i am not versed in the regulations, just have heard about some of the peeps who got popped with illegitimate fun guns during other procedings and ended up with more time just for the fun guns. I hear the food is better at the fed's though. :)
     
  11. Ltriker

    Ltriker New Member

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    I always read the die at the hands of bubba in the federal pen if you get caught with any illegal NFA items threads and wonder...how many of these writers know someone who was arressted with illegal NFA items?

    I know a guy who I met and never pegged him as a gun guy, he never talked guns, went shooting with us, or wore clothingg associated with gun people.

    One day I run into him at a gunshow and he has piles of stuff on a table at rediculously low prices..I ask what is up and he says he is just trying to clear out all the stuff "they" left after the raid...
    WHAT???
    He proceeds to tell me that he returns home from vacation and is met by a man who called himby his full name, odd, he thought, somhe goes to see who it is and what he wants. Guys introduces himself as BATFE agent X. Then asks if they can go inside to talk, once inside he asks to see his weapons collection. Friend open closet, points to a single hard case and says there is my AR. The agent then asks where the "other" stuff is, then tells friend that there are 5 more agents and two sheriffs deputies waiting outside. Friend breaks down and tells himit is all buried three counties away. Agent says that if he will show the locate, he will make him a deal. They gomto the location and a backhoe shows up, they dig for a few hours, then spend a few more hours cutting open several large PVC pipe containers...
    15 M-16s
    12 AK47s
    20 MAC 10s
    12 STEn guns
    5 HK MP5s

    Multiple mags and ammo for all, they took the guns, left him the mags and ammo, dropped himoff at home and he never saw them again.

    After selling most of what was on his table, he walked over to a dealear and bought a Beretta 92 and the NICS background check came back clean.

    I am willing to bet this is not the norm, but, I have heard of it happening several times. Just something to ponder.




    I do NOT condone illegal behavior, especially in regards to NFA items and have several legally regiatered items myself.
     
  12. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    makes for an awesome story to sell stuff at a gunshow!!

    sometimes the feds do cut deals but is that a gamble you want to take??
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2011
  13. Sniper03

    Sniper03 Supporting Member Supporter

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    Regarding Manufacturing requirements.

    There are other issues when you are classified as a manufacturer. And especially for class III weapons.

    One of which is the $2500.00 Dollar a year manufacturer's fee.
    Then the 11% Federal Excise per weapon
    They will require specified security for the weapons upon your interview.
    Unfortunately they are going to frown on a home shop.
    Then there is the fact that like the IRS if you contact 5 people from the ATF regarding a question you may get three or four varying interpretations of the guidelines and laws. Be sure to follow the law closely. There is no consideration for even unintentional errors. No sense of humor so to speak!
    But the consequences can be horrific.
    *And all of the other issues the guys have previously advised.
    Good Luck to all!

    03
     
  14. MobileMarine

    MobileMarine New Member

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    kinda what i was thinking along with the agents had a good new years party . I have gotten on a my gattlin gun kick again and before any of you jump my case about saftey and machining , laws ect just remember that some guy 150yrs ago with bare basic handtools and nothing to go by made one . I have full intentions on building one chambered in 12ga with 4-5 tubes . I think it will be quicker to make it out of the NEF 12ga single shots from wally world . It wont be pretty but damn it will be cool , look for pictures
     
  15. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    long as you stay hand cranked and follow the rules for making your own firearm your fine. if you put a motor on the crank or fit to put one on it, it turns into a nfa item and that will get ya in trouble. also you cant have a trigger you hold down regardless of the crank hand or motorized.
     
  16. triggerman770

    triggerman770 New Member

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    beating the horse

    "One of which is the $2500.00 Dollar a year manufacturer's fee."
    what fee is this?