BATFE Violates The Law Again

Discussion in 'Legal and Activism' started by Bigcountry02, Apr 3, 2012.

  1. Bigcountry02

    Bigcountry02 Coffee! If your not shaking, you need another cup Supporter

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    Pulled this from ammoland.

    http://www.ammoland.com/2012/04/03/batfe-violates-the-law-again/#axzz1r1yYPTUt

    Anchorage, AK --(Ammoland.com)- BATFE is violating the law again.

    Anchorage gun shops are being visited by BATFE agents that are requesting the shops 4473 forms as far back as 2007.

    They claim they want to make copies of the “book”. This is defacto registration, against the law, and BATFE knows it.

    Please inform everyone you know about this and notify any gun dealers you know that they don’t have to comply. Contact your congressman and senators and demand a full investigation.

    Don Young and our Senators have been informed about what is happening. Congressman Young is acutely interested but our senators seem to be indifferent.

    You can go to their websites to find their email forms. A contact at Congressman Young’s office is Eric Elam eric.elam@mail.house.gov

    Don Young
    View Website
    Office of Congressman Don Young
    2314 Rayburn House Office Building
    Washington, DC 20515
    Tel: (202)225-5765
    Fax: (202)225-0425

    Mark Begich
    View Website
    111 Russell Senate Office Building
    Washington, DC 20510
    Tel: (202) 224-3004
    Fax: (202) 224-2354
    Toll-free line: 1(877)501-6275*
    *Only toll-free for callers with an Alaska (907) area code.

    Lisa Murkowski
    View Website
    709 Hart Senate Building
    Washington, DC 20510
    Tel: (202)224-6665
    Fax: (202)224-5301

    This information was provided by the Alaska Libertarians.

    About:
    The mission of The Anchorage Second Amendment Task Force is to provide Alaskans with the knowledge of the meaning and true purpose of the second amendment to the U.S. Constitution, with which they may conduct themselves as responsible citizens of our republic. Visit: www.anchorage2atf.com
     
  2. Millwright

    Millwright New Member

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    "ObamaLand" - and its lawlessness, strikes again ! I'm sure there's a lot of "closet muslims" lurking in AK ! >MW
     

  3. mountainman13

    mountainman13 New Member

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    Unbelievable. This is how it starts.
     
  4. Txhillbilly

    Txhillbilly Active Member

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    People can bitch and moan all they want.It won't do any good the way I see it.
    As long as the asshat's in DC are allowed to keep breathing air,we are going to continue getting screwed by them.

    The plug needs to get pulled on the Big Government Machine,and never plugged back in.What is it going to take for each of the states to stand up to the fed's,and tell them to "F" off.
     
  5. bkt

    bkt New Member

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    Aren't 4473 forms supposed to be kept by the FFL and provided when a subpoena is issued for info on a specific firearm? Is there a law barring the ATF from asking for copies of all 4473 forms? There may be...I'm just not up on this like I should be.

    What the ATF is doing is really not like registration. If you can make face-to-face sales of firearms, a 4473 record really doesn't prove or disprove what you own or whether you own any firearms. But what this does do is provide a data point to establish likely firearm owners. Combine that with membership lists at gun clubs, who applied for hunting permits, etc. and you can build a pretty good picture of who probably does and does not own firearms.

    Has the ATF offered any explanation why they want this information?
     
  6. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    I believe they have unfettered access to the 4473's but cannot remove them or make copies. They can take notes. Copies shoud require a subpoena. In Texas last year they visited shops and made note of AR/AK purchases. ATF agents visited the purchasers and requested to see the rifle purchased. At least one Houston area cop got caught making straw purchases. Two rifles he purchased ended up travelling South w/o him.
     
  7. Shade

    Shade New Member

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    I recently had this discussion with my buddy/Gunshop owner/FFL, actually
    they can take them without a subpeona, however, they are only allowed to
    take them 1) in the course of a criminal investitation and only 4473 specific
    to that investation and 2) they must leave a reciept for that 4473.

    Example:
    So if John Doe is a suspected straw purchaser for local criminals, the ATF
    can request the 4473's for all guns that John Doe purchased. The FFL has
    to provide them. When the investigation is over the ATF is required to
    return them. However, most investigations are Gun X is recovered as a
    weapon used in a crime. The Serial number is traced from the Mfr. to the
    wholesaler, to the gunshop to the owner(s) and hopefully to the criminal.
    Any 4473 that are removed from the shop, the ATF agent is required to
    leave a signed receipt for those records. More than one my buddy had
    4473's taken by one agent only to have another stop in a week or two
    later asking for the same one (a particular gun by s/n) Dick showed the
    receipt and all was good. Several Agents commented that it was good
    he had the receipt.

    Also:
    If a gun shop closes down all the 4473 are to be turned over to the ATF.
     
  8. Millwright

    Millwright New Member

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    Per Shade; ".....If a gun shop closes down all the 4473 are to be turned over to the ATF."....

    Kinda seems like the "BATFEs" have a vested interest in closing down gun shops, doesn't it ? >MW
     
  9. NativH

    NativH New Member

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    Getting those 4473's will certainly provide leads to the one time or occasional buyer/shooter enthusiast. But for most of us here, my Form 4's, NRA Patron and TSRA Life Member status, and most likely my firearms website memberships, give me away in spades. I never was very good at hiding.;)
     
  10. primer1

    primer1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Someone is under investigation for straw purchasing in the area. Assuming that is true, the ATF is in the right to find out what this guy is doing. Who here doesn't want people that give guns a bad name to get caught instead of more restrictions for all of us?
     
  11. mountainman13

    mountainman13 New Member

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    Totally agree. I want the atf to do its job. But you would think the ffl could narrow it down to a few possibilities and not have to hand over everyone's info.
     
  12. bkt

    bkt New Member

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    I sure as hell don't want the ATF to do its job. I want it to go away. Where in 2A do we have to ask permission (as we do by filling out 4473 forms) to buy a firearm?
     
  13. Shade

    Shade New Member

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    I completely agree, the NICS system, or something similar
    is all that is needed to show that the buyer is not a convicted
    felon or has been adjudicated mentally incompetent. As long
    as the buyer can legally purchase a firearm that is all that is
    needed to be confirmed by the authorities, what he is purchasing
    or why is none of the government's business.

    IMO, Requirements to purchase a firearm:

    1) Not a convicted felon, I believe that if you committed a
    felony that you has demonstrated that you cannot be a full
    member of society and should not be able own a firearm or
    to be able to vote.
    2) Not adjudicated mentally incompetent.
    3) 18 years of age.
     
  14. primer1

    primer1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That is why the ATF is investigating. The person in question was walking around town with a sawed off shotgun, a bandolier of ammo, yelling at people (imaginary) that were making fun of him. This had been going on for a couple of weeks. I don't know enough of the story to point blame, but imo there is something wrong with the system when this happens.
     
  15. alsaqr

    alsaqr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Bingo.

    A mentally disturbed tramp walked into a gunstore, asked to look at some guns, priced one and appeared to be leaving the store. The store owner, Coxe, went on about his business. He later discovered $200 on the counter and the Ruger .22 missing. Coxe should have called the local cops and the BATFE. Coxe claims he called the cops; he also deposited the $200 in his account-not smart.

    The tramp sawed off the gun and later murdered a man with it.

    http://www.heraldonline.com/2012/04/03/v-print/3869981/alaskas-supreme-court-reviews.html

     
  16. primer1

    primer1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The a$$hole politicians don't need any more fodder. Let's put people away that break the laws instead of making more laws that restrict us.
     
  17. Shade

    Shade New Member

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    Oh no we cannot punish criminals, it was the horrible (fill in the blank) as
    a child that made them that way. We can not tarnish their low self asteem
    any more than it already has been. That would be violating their civil rights.


    (sorry for my sarcasm dripping everywhere...)
     
  18. orangello

    orangello New Member

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    I am all good with bad guys being caught doing bad things, but i would prefer not to give up the 4th amendment in the process. I mean, if we follow your string of logic to its eventual application, we will all be living on 24/7 video surveillance with anally-implanted GPS tracking devices that simultaneously check our cholesterol and monitor our poop for illicit substances like marijuana or too much sugar.

    Pass! The federalis need to play by the rules or petition to have the rules changed by popular vote subject to judicial review.


    Edit* A whacko shoplifting a .22 sounds like an issue for the local LEO's, not the feds. I can only hope he takes some grizzly bears down with him; i mean, what else would a sawed-off .22 be good for, right? :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2012
  19. Shade

    Shade New Member

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    Completely agree.

    I was confused on that too, it was not clear if the .22 was sawed
    off or a shot gun was sawed off. And it is arguable that the gun
    was not stolen as money was left for it. But the shop owner was
    partially negligent is leaving this guy alone with access to guns.

    I think the ATF is involved because the paper work was not completed
    as is supposedly needs to be. I agree we should not have to have
    paper trail. But these days it is the law of the land.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2012
  20. tomgodd

    tomgodd Active Member

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    Glad someone said it. Thumbs up bkt!

    Thomas