Army Killed New Carbine Because It Wasn’t Twice As Reliable As Current M4

Discussion in 'AR-15 Discussion' started by Quentin, Jun 14, 2013.

  1. Quentin

    Quentin New Member

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    Looks like the M4 is here to stay for the foreseeable future. I think overall it was a wise decision.


    The final six Individual (Improved) Carbine program contenders all were piston designs:

    FN FNAC (SCAR)
    Heckler & Koch HK416A5
    Remington ACR
    Adcor Defense BEAR Elite
    Beretta ARX-160
    Colt Enhanced M4


    http://breakingdefense.com/2013/06/...-twice-as-good-as-current-m4/?test=latestnews
    .
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2013
  2. MrPEZO

    MrPEZO New Member

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    That was a great read. Thanks for sharing.
     

  3. MattShlock

    MattShlock New Member

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    Yes Siree, good article. M855A1? Coburn's case against the M4? The (un)reliability of the M4!?

    Knowing the Army acquisition process and history, they made a decision and found a way out of what Congress foisted upon them...

    I wonder if we'll ever know who really won, who lost, why and how. Probably after our lifetimes in a FOIA request when the book is written about the real end of the XM8 program. THAT'll be interesting reading and I'm sorry I'll miss it...

    :(
     
  4. Overkill0084

    Overkill0084 Active Member

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    This tells me that they weren't serious about the issue to start with.

    3592 rds? I'd really love to know how they arrived at that number. For some reason I get the feeling it was one of those "It came to me in a dream" kind of standards. Maybe they pulled it off an odometer?
     
  5. Axxe55

    Axxe55 The Apocalypse Is Coming.....

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    yes, very odd number. 3592 divided by 30 round mags only equals 119.733 mags. why not an even 120 mags?
     
  6. AgentTikki

    AgentTikki New Member

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    They did say that they required the gun fire ON AVERAGE 3592 without a stoppage. I'm guessing they mean 120 mags.
     
  7. Tackleberry1

    Tackleberry1 New Member

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    Sounds like Congress trying to waste money and the Army saying "no thanks."

    As an Infantry Vet I was never happy with the 5.56 MM but... From an 18" M16A2 I had every confidence that would do it's job and I had no reservations about my ability to hit targets consistently out to 600 meters.

    I also had no problems with malfunctions in the A2 Configuration.

    All us DI AR owners know our shorter mid length systems do experience far more fouling that the older full length... and we also know that the current 14.5" M4 lacks the range for effective engagements at distances found in Afghanistan... Which is why be broke the old M14's out of storage for use as Designated Marksman Rifles.

    All that said, I agree with Generals. If it's not twice as good, why waste money on a new toy?

    Tack
     
  8. Quentin

    Quentin New Member

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    "... During testing in 2010, M4A1s loaded with the M855A1 round fired, on average, 1,691 times before jamming.

    So the 3,591 mean rounds between stoppage the Army wanted for the Individual Carbine was 112 percent better than what the M4A1 can currently manage. That would definitely be a “leap ahead” in reliability. How far short of that standard each competitor fell is proprietary information the Army could not disclose. But the service argues that anything less than a 112 percent improvement wouldn’t justify the huge investment required to issue everyone new guns..."




    Without being there it's hard to say exactly what they did but simple math comes close.

    1691 + 1691 X 112% rounds to 3585 which is roughly 112% "better than what the M4A1 can currently manage"

    To get 3591 they used something like 112.36%
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2013
  9. therewolf

    therewolf New Member

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    Hell, it would be fun to know who and what was in the game...
     
  10. Copeman60

    Copeman60 New Member

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    The m16 is the greatest rifle platform ever an it may not be replace for a long time!! Thank you mr. stoner!!!
     
  11. trip286

    trip286 New Member

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    Pass that pipe over here sweet cheeks, I want some of what your smoking.

    Not saying it ain't great. I've used it myself, and have seen it go through **** that impressed the hell out of me, but greatest ever it ain't.

    Best that the US has to offer to the troops in mass availability, at this moment, yeah. It is.
     
  12. MattShlock

    MattShlock New Member

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    Thanks for your service. So, from your knowledgeable and practical experience that ol' 18" M16A2 served you well did it now!?
    :rolleyes:
     
  13. pawjr74

    pawjr74 New Member

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    So the rifles aren't cleaned at all during the test but was no lube added either?
     
  14. Quentin

    Quentin New Member

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    I was wondering that too so looked them up.
    The final six Individual (Improved) Carbine program contenders all were piston designs:

    FN FNAC (SCAR)
    Heckler & Koch HK416A5
    Remington ACR
    Adcor Defense BEAR Elite
    Beretta ARX-160
    Colt Enhanced M4

    All in all, not a great day for the piston AR! :D

    *** I edited the first post to include this information since it does belong there.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2013
  15. Tackleberry1

    Tackleberry1 New Member

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    Yes it did. What's your point?
     
  16. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    Since when did the A2 have an 18" barrel? Try 20"
     
  17. beastmode986

    beastmode986 New Member

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    Why dont our troops use something in 308??? I dont see any issues with 556 but why not 308? Its got more power...
     
  18. Tackleberry1

    Tackleberry1 New Member

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    Ahh, sorry... Was not yet through the first cup of coffee this morning. :eek:
     
  19. Quentin

    Quentin New Member

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    I was wondering the same thing, Tack. Those of us who've carried the M16/M4 deserve better treatment than that.
     
  20. trip286

    trip286 New Member

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    There's much debate about that. I think one of the "official" reasons is so that they can carry more ammo.

    There's a lot of speculation on who the right person was who made the right amount of money by switching them to the 5.56.

    Note, .308 IS still used in limited capacities. The EBR is a souped up M14, and there are at least a couple different machine guns chambered in .308 (the metric equivalent anyway, 7.62X51)