Armored Cavalry by Tom Clancy

Discussion in 'General Handgun Discussion' started by patret, Aug 14, 2010.

  1. patret

    patret New Member

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    I just finished a book written by Tom Clancy and there were no other co- Authors mentioned. He made a statement that I don`t agree with. He stated that a Beretta M9 with a standard NATO round had the same stopping power as the 45 ACP at close range. I don`t agree with this statement. Does anyone else have a opinion?

    patret
     
  2. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    Well, ON PAPER- they are similar. The 9mm NATO is basically a 124 gr +P cartridge, and the muzzle energy is about the same- around 350 ft lbs for 9mm NATO and a 230 gr FMJ .45 ACP.

    However, if I was making the call, I would go with fat and slow. Once heard a gent say that a bigger hole lets air in, blood out. Considering that in military use they will all be FMJ, cannot but feel that the bigger bullet will mor efficently transfer energy.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2010

  3. IGETEVEN

    IGETEVEN New Member

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    Define close range? 1-5 feet, good round placement, like the head, yes I concur.
     
  4. patret

    patret New Member

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    Mr. Clancy did not define close range. I would guess it would be combat range. Combat range would be about 25 yards.

    patret
     
  5. HotGuns

    HotGuns Member

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    I guess Mr. Clancy is technically correct.

    If a 9mm kills you or a .45 kills you, you wont be the one arguing about it...it'll be your buddies standing over you wondering how they are going to split up your gear.
     
  6. Dave T

    Dave T New Member

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    Not sure I'd worry about the gun savvy of a former insurance guy turned fiction writer. (smiley face goes here)

    Dave
     
  7. NGIB

    NGIB New Member

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    That's 75 feet with a handgun. I'd say handgun combat range is 3-12 yards or so...
     
  8. stalkingbear

    stalkingbear Well-Known Member

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    All I know is if I have a choice between a 9mm and a .45 for defense, I'll choose the .45 every time. The .45 makes a bigger hole going in and is less apt to overpenetrate with all other things being equal. I'm a firm believer of more frontal area. That's not to say I want to get shot with a 9mm.
     
  9. Alchemist

    Alchemist New Member

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    So... Overall, did you like the Armored Cavalry book?
     
  10. pmeisel

    pmeisel New Member

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    I generally like Clancy, but in his non-fiction like Armored Cavalry (I have read a few others), he generalizes a lot.

    He is writing about complex subjects for a non-technical audience, and he is only just so technical himself.... I wouldn't say he is necessarily wrong about a lot of things, but in subjects I am familiar with he tends to gloss over some of the finer points.

    You can spend a lot of time talking about M9 vs. 1911 (check out any firearms board) and Clancy just isn't going to go that deep, he'll draw a general conclusion and move on.
     
  11. superc

    superc Member

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    I met TC a long, long, time ago, for maybe 3 minutes. So far back in time that the 1911a1 was still the issue sidearm and our battleships were getting fitted with the new-fangled cruise missiles. Back then he was doing research on that book about a capture of a submarine. He wanted it accurate so he was visiting a building where other people who knew things could tell him stuff he could put in the book. Point is he is no more a subject matter expert on pistols than he is on subs, tanks, or drug cartels. Reads papers and talks to others for their feedback. Good research technique, and I wish more authors did so (grow so tired of 'slipping his silencer onto the Detective Special,' and the ilk), but that is a long ways away from doing and experience. Clearly someone who preferred 9s to .45s told him that once or twice and he just wrote whatever the person with the anti-45 axe to grind told him. Equally obvious he has never looked at them on a Taylor scale (see Energy Calculator or read "African Rifles and Cartridges," by John Taylor 1948 to learn how to do your own workups), nor has he shot some deer (or people) at close range with either, any more than he has seen genuine combat from inside a tank. Using the link above factory ball gives my Luger (124 gr at 1200 fps) a Taylor rating of 7 vs. the Taylor rating of 12 for the 45 (230 grain at 860) ACP. [Incidentally, my favorite deer load with a hot .45 Colt (250 gr @ 1500+) in a Winchester 94AE jumps up to Taylor 22, which is probably why that .45 load does such a neat job on Bambi. A ,308 at 150 gr. at 2700 fps comes in at only 17 on the Taylor scale which is pretty much my own experience when killing Bambi or his relatives.]

    Deer and people are both 150 - 250 pound mammals with adrenal glands and you should view them the same when rating handguns. Those who claim the deer are magically stronger and tougher because they live outside should consider so do hobos and some thugs.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2010
  12. patret

    patret New Member

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    I used to read all his books but he is not the writer once was. He was just repeating what the talking heads were saying in the Army. I lost respect with him after reading his last several books. Some other`s might disagree but I no longer have a good opinion of his books. I did not care for the book.

    Patret