Armed society VS regular army during the war

Discussion in 'Training & Safety' started by MajkiFajki, Oct 26, 2010.

  1. MajkiFajki

    MajkiFajki New Member

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    Hello Everybody


    I'm from Poland. In my country, You are strictly prohibited to have a firearm. You know, "because guns kill people, we'll be like USA, where everyday is shooting in schools, etc.":D

    Seriously - in Poland most of the people see guns in USA that way.

    I've been arguing with many people who are against free access to weapons. And only one argument made me think.
    "Armed civilians are unable to defend their country against regular military. They have trained soldiers, tanks and all kind of military accesories". Groups of armed people would be wiped out in seconds. Look at Faludga, second attack at Grozny, siege of Sarayevo."

    I asked for sources of this way of thinking.

    "It's obvious! You still live in the 40' of XX century. Nowadays heavy industry is away from cities, you don't have to even use infantry. Just eliminate government, and bomb few cities as example what will happen, if they don't surrender. Classic war is past."

    I thought, I'll look for some interviews with military officials or on-line resources. I did not find anything. So I have registered at this forums to ask community about that.

    Are this arguments reasonable?
    And would You please point me some on-line resources about this subject? Preferably video with some military officials - I'd translate it into polish language and re-upload on YouTube in purpose of education.
     
  2. Cory2

    Cory2 New Member

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    Well an excellent example is Switzerland in WW2, and really any modern time of war. They arm their citizenry and it prevented them from being involved in ww2 as no one was willing to suffer such massive losses. I mean sure, if an abrams tank where to roll down my street right now there would not be to much i could do about it (short of abusing the R.O.E.) but if i knew it was coming ahead of time there are quite a few things i could do about it. Also for the foreseable future infantry will always be the keystone of any modern military. Even though they may have fully automatic weapons and body armor the civilian population will still massively outnumber them and a bullet to the brain kills soldiers just as much as it does civilians.

    Here is a good example of how having an armed citizenry has helped the Swiss out immensly
    WHY AN ARMED CITIZENRY?

    Alot of what you are talking about is pure "theorycraft". It all depends on how armed the civilian population is. Obviously if every single person has a firearm but all of the firearms are flintlocks they arent going to be very effectual against a modern military. However, if they have availability to high end modern day firearms (such as Americans do e.g. FN SCAR, ar 15's, r700's, or any other semi or fully automatic highcapacity firearm or highpowered hunting rifles) they will present a significant threat to any military force.


    I would rather die on my feet than live on my knees.
     

  3. MajkiFajki

    MajkiFajki New Member

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    Thank you for response.

    My adversary used argument, that armed society is defenseless against military invasion. In my opinion, You can beat the army, sure. But still You have to occupy cities, roads, etc. And getting killed by civilian any time (including pee-time around the corner) can be very demotivating.


    Does any of US Military Officials said something about that? Somebody who has been in many military missions? I'm looking for the sources. For me, not having a right to have firearm is equal to fascism. When I argue about weapons, this was the only argument, I could not deal with - the argument that created this topic:)
     
  4. kenhesr

    kenhesr New Member

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    Hi Maj, You might try the NRA website. They have some news & video you might find useful.

    NRA News

    We in the US have it in our constitution, (2nd amendment) that we have the right to keep & bear arms. The people who started this country thought it was important enough to spell it out in the start-up manual for our country.

    Originally they gave us the right to have weapons, not so much for hunting or sport, but more to protect the peoples rights FROM OUR Government.

    Your friends are probably right, a head-on confrontation of civilians against an army wouldn't last too long, except in places like Vietnam, Iraq or Afghanistan. But thats not what its about in the USA. Just by having an armed populace, our forefathers thought it would help keep our government leaders in line and respect the rights of the people.

    If you really want to understand more, read some of Thomas Jefferson's quotes and a few of our other founding fathers. It seems complicated, but its really not, just remember, we have the RIGHT to own weapons over here.

    Thomas Jefferson Quotes

    Welcome to the forum. Ken
     
  5. MajkiFajki

    MajkiFajki New Member

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    @kenhesr
    I absolutely agree with TJ, read a lot about history of US and I truly respect America's classic liberal heritage. Shame on Europe, that we fell into hell we live still.

    What I'm after - is reliable sources, that armed society can seriously slow down enemy invasion.
     
  6. dunerunner

    dunerunner New Member

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    What a civilian militia can do is slow down an invading force, freeing-up trained, better armed regular Military to engage on another flank. An invading force cannot advance, leaving a potential sniper force or organized militia behind to disrupt its operations and supply lines.

    If you are talking about a government over-running its populace with tanks and military, all I can say is; I hope this never happens in the USA!
     
  7. kenhesr

    kenhesr New Member

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    How about this quote from WWII - Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto - “You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass.” - He had the right idea!
     
  8. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    Does the Warsau ghetto uprising sound familiar? A small band of armed people were able to hold off the German Army for quite a while. A larger force would have fared much better. Similar such forces across Europe would have given Hitler such fits they would not have been able to take as much land as they did.

    Napoleon had a terrible time with the guerillas in Spain they nearly ended the Spanish campaign over it.

    It is not that an armed citizen could defeat a standing army. The armed citizens stand together as a roadblock to tyranny. One could not expect every American service person to actively engage US citizens in battle. Those that would do so would have a difficult mission in defeating an indigenous guerilla force, much like the Viet Cong were impossible to completely overcome.

    IMHO, the USA would be far too costly to invade unless the politicians succeed in disarming the populace.
     
  9. MajkiFajki

    MajkiFajki New Member

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    In short words.
    Statement, that "armed civilians are useless in direct combat with regular military" is wrong.
    Because armed civilians don't fight that way, they go guerrilla instead, right?
     
  10. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    It sounds good, but that quote has been misapplied to Admiral Yamamoto for years.
     
  11. MajkiFajki

    MajkiFajki New Member

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    Thanks guys for respond. In return, I'll tell You a story.

    In February this year in Warsaw, capital of Poland, about 10AM a bus stopped at bus-stop. Drunken teenager picked up a trashcan and threw it into bus' window. The glass shattered. One man stood up - a policeman after duty. He showed badge and called the teenager to calm down. On the bus-stop, there was also second teenager. He had knife, he killed that police man. This kid was 18.

    Now the best bit: policeman had no gun, because in Poland law forbids policeman to carry a weapon after duty. They have to leave it at police station.

    Murderer is still (we have October!) pending to be trialed. He may get 25 years, lifetime with some luck (for us, normal people - in Poland there is no capital punishment for murderers). After that incident, in polish media serious storm started. You know about what?

    "Carrying knifes should be forbidden, just like in other European countries".

    You don't know, how lucky You are, You live in USA:)
     
  12. dunerunner

    dunerunner New Member

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    Sheeple are stupid!! It should be a reality show on television!!

    Ban guns, then it will be safe!
    Ban knives, then it will be safe!
    Ban clubs, then it will be safe!
    Ban shovel handles, then it will be safe!

    Ban yourself back into the stone age and people will attack and kill each other with their bare fists!

    It is a social behavior problem, not a choice of weapon problem!! Those teens would not have confronted that policeman if they had thought for one moment that he might have been armed with a gun!

    Some quotes to remember:

    "Security through superior fire power."
    "God created man, Sam Colt made them equal; more or less."
     
  13. MajkiFajki

    MajkiFajki New Member

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    Many Europeans believe in this

     
  14. orangello

    orangello New Member

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    Are tasers or electrical stun guns popular there or does everyone just carry a sock filled with coins?
     
  15. MajkiFajki

    MajkiFajki New Member

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    Tasers or electrical stun guns - not under 18. So if You send daughter to disco, she has to carry coins.
    Nunchako and crossbows are illegal too.

    Of course, criminals don't give a damn about laws. Few days ago some crazy guy walked into a one of the major parties' office with a gas-gun customized to use real 9mm bullets. He shot 8 times one man, and stabbed dozen times second one. One dead body, one guy in ER.

    One of the parties (Socialist Leftist Alliance) stated, that "all firearms should be illiegal, including the ones with already given permissions".
     
  16. DrumJunkie

    DrumJunkie New Member

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    Isn't reactionary government great!:rolleyes:
     
  17. kenhesr

    kenhesr New Member

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    I can't say either way, wasn't there when he was quoted.

    If you are that sure, ya might want to email these people, (quote #6) can't have something like that being repeated if its that obviously wrong.

    Isoroku Yamamoto Quotes

    Thanks for setting history straight. Ken
     
  18. MajkiFajki

    MajkiFajki New Member

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    We've got quite off-topic here:)

    If You're curious about guns in Poland - feel free to ask:)
     
  19. Flat4sti

    Flat4sti New Member

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    So what are we supposed to use, harsh language?