Ar15 vs AR9 how much more is needed?

Discussion in 'FirearmsTalk Support and Suggestions' started by Marshall Jones, Jan 17, 2018.

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  1. Marshall Jones

    Marshall Jones New Member

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    Hello, this is my first post here and I'm seeking some guidance.
    I have two ARs I have built one is a 16inch 556 clambering.
    The second is a AR9 8 inch barrel.
    I have no operator background whatsoever just enjoy shooting, I have shot a lot of .223 and 9mm and I enjoy them both. Now where my question leads me is- let's talk about potential home defence and 100y and in SHTF and small/med size game hunting.
    Obviously a 223 has more power then a 9mm nobody will argue against that, but it seems like most people will choose 223 over 9mm for "stopping power". Now obviously 308 has more stopoing power then 223, still seems like 223 is the choice the majority of people will choose despite the 308 having more power then the 223.
    So with that being said what's the point of its not the best caliber but it is substantial enough to work effectively without being "overkill" say 50BMG. Let's talk home defence, say someone were to break into my home and I had to use either a 9mm ar pistol or my ar15 would they both work perfectly fine at those distances or would the 223 be superior every time regardless or the situation?

    I like the thought of my AR9 pistol as I can carry it in a backpack while traveling and really cheep ammo to train with and also a shorter package then a 16 inch barrel.
    But realistically say in an extreme situation a fight within 100y would a ar9 be outgunned by a ar15 of equal barrel length?
    I know the 223 had more power but is it enough power to realistically make a difference?
     
  2. youngridge

    youngridge Well-Known Member

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    Keep em both. SHTF scenario the 3 most common calibers available will be 5.56, 9mm, and 7.62x51/.308. Maybe some 7.62x39

    What you need for small game hunting is a pellet gun and a .22 rifle with a suppressor. Light stuff and quiet.
     

  3. Marshall Jones

    Marshall Jones New Member

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    Awesome, thank you for your feedback, I've pourpously kept these two calibers due to ammo availability/cost/balistic efficiency.
     
  4. Dallas53

    Dallas53 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    lets quantify exactly what is a SHTF situation, and under what conditions.

    so what kind of SHTF situation are we discussing? real, or fantasy? how long would it last? short term, or long term? what caused the SHTF situation? man made, or natural disaster?

    and where are located, could also determine what firearms would be more useful, depending upon the factors involved in what caused the SHTF situation, and where you live.

    bugging in, or bugging out?

    you are asking a question for which there are no simple, or one size fits all answer to.
     
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  5. Marshall Jones

    Marshall Jones New Member

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    Well, SHTF to me could mostly be anything catastrophic, natural disaster, economic collapse, WW3, silver war, big scale terrorist attack ect. So I would want adequate firearms so handle a variety of situations thinking best at none but good at most, for hunting mid size game and small game, having effective firepower/stopping power to stop a threat if need be. 100y and in gun.
     
  6. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member Admin Moderator Lifetime Supporter

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    Marshall, first, welcome to the forum- glad you found us. For 100 yards or less, while the .223/ 5.56 will have greater energy, both are likely to be an effective defensive weapon. The short barrel is less awkward when you are in tight quarters, the longer gun has better "pointing" characteristics, just because it IS longer. Also makes a more effective club. :)

    For midsized game (Eastern Whitetail deer or smaller) both will work, the 9mm a bit less so than .223 (but you are asking a guy that deer hunts with a long barreled .357 Magnum) And as you have mentioned- 9mm ammo is cheap. So cheap that I just bought an M1 carbine chambered in 9mm.

    As far as "stopping power"- you stop an aggressor by one of 2 ways- you scare/hurt them enough that they decide "BLEEP THIS!!!!" and run, or you shut down the brain. You shut down the brain by disrupting it, disconnecting it, or making it run out of blood. Any projectile that will knock them over like a bowling pin will ALSO knock the shooter over (action= reaction thingy). Does the 5.56 shut down the brain with a greater degree of certainty than the 9mm? Oh HELL yes! Otherwise our M16s would be launching 9mm Parabellum. Is it enough? THAT is going to be a matter of conjecture, argument, and long hours of the evening around the fire discussion.

    I would not feel ill armed with either, would keep both, would reach for the 5.56 if I really needed a gun- but that is just my call.

    Good website called "Ballistics by the inch" gives some data on energy of different ammo from different barrels. If you are not familiar with it, take a look.

    And stick around- natives here are generally friendly and do not attack and eat newcomers (they wait until you have been around a while and don't expect it!):eek:
     
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  7. danf_fl

    danf_fl Retired Supporter

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    Hopefully they are not shoulder mounted ar's (or at least you have the paperwork)
     
  8. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member Admin Moderator Lifetime Supporter

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    He DID say pistol.......
     
  9. Dallas53

    Dallas53 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    in any true SHTF situation, a 22 rim-fire, in a pistol or rifle would be essential. or a person could always add a 22 rim-fire conversion kit for one of the AR's, or a dedicated 22 rim-fire upper as well.

    even the lowly little 22 rim-fire at very close range would still be deadly self defense firearm.
     
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  10. Marshall Jones

    Marshall Jones New Member

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    Is there any recommended standard for any given bullet how many FT/LB of energy it takes to effectivly stop a human?
    I'm trying to figure out if the .223 has enough realistic power over the 9mm to justify pay 2x the price per bullet. (Again within 100y)
     
  11. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member Admin Moderator Lifetime Supporter

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    Well, it is not just about needed energy (or I would carry a 9 lb sledgehammer) It is generally accepted that a defensive cartridge should be about to penetrate 12 inches for RELIABLY stopping someone.

    Crunched some numbers thru some calculation programs. Here is what I got-

    Assuming a 124 gr 9mm Hydrashok from a 9 inch pistol barrel- you start with 474 ft pounds at the muzzle, drop to 308 ft lbs at 100 yards

    Assuming a 55 gr .223, 16 inch bbl, you start at 1282 ft lbs at muzzle, drops to 1008 ft lbs at 100 yds. More than 3x the energy of a 9mm from a shorter barrel.

    Would a 9mm get 12 inches of penetration at 100 yds? Don't know, find it doubtful. Am NOT going to volunteer to get shot at with anything.
     
  12. JTJ

    JTJ Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I for one am reluctant to launch a 5.56x45 inside a house. I have close neighbors and I am not foolish enough to believe I wont miss. I now keep a 9x19 in the drawer as might wife might be able to use it in a pinch. She has a S&W 15-22 as her go to and I keep a 410 pump handy. Dont underestimate a 410.
    As far a SHTF goes the circumstances will govern what you need. What you are looking for is a jack of all trades and master of none. The 5.56x45/223 falls into that class and would not be the worst choice. In a bug out situation weight is critical. You can only carry so much and ammunition weighs a good bit. Just for numbers look at a 10 lb load of just ammo. 9x19 and 5.56x45/223 weigh about the same so maybe 370 rounds. If you opt for a 7.62x39 or 300BO cut that back to 270 rounds. For 22lr it is 1360 rounds. Interesting numbers, 22 magnum would be 1100 rounds and 1500 fps in a 5.5" barrel and 1870fps in a 16" barrel. That could also be a Jack of all trades. Also look at the weight of the guns. Figure out what you are capable of carrying and plan. A good quality pack makes a huge difference and so does your footwear. Big question, are you capable of maintaining your firearm in the field with no support?
    Stealth is going to mean more than power. Any gunshot wound with no medical help could be a death sentence. Running out of ammo would also be hazardous to your health.
    http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/22.html
     
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  13. JTJ

    JTJ Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Another thought. If that AR 9 were equipped with a suppressor and you packed 147 grain subsonic ammo (325 rounds) it would be a very good choice.
     
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  14. Marshall Jones

    Marshall Jones New Member

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    So as far as hunting game goes, general rule of thumb is a heavier bullet will be more effective ya? So say 115gr vs 147 for 9mm what would be better at stopping a human and also a mid size game animal?
     
  15. Marshall Jones

    Marshall Jones New Member

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    So penetration is the main stopper people look for over FT/LB and velocity?
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
  16. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member Admin Moderator Lifetime Supporter

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    Energy is velocity squared times mass. In order to GET penetration, you will need energy. The FBI had a rather infamous shootout with some bad guys, FBI using 115 gr 9mm. That got some FBI agents killed.

    Please consider that a bad guy is not always facing you straight on at the same level, needing only about 4 inches of penetration to reach vitals. If you were having a really bad day, you could be lying on the ground, shooting up at someone trying to kick your ribs in. THAT'S where that 12 inch number came from.

    As far as penetration of building materials, if you have not seen it, look up "box of truth". Gent builds boxes of drywall layers, brick, block wood, shoots them with different firearms, records the results.
     
  17. JTJ

    JTJ Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
  18. Marshall Jones

    Marshall Jones New Member

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    People say a minimum of 12 inches of penetration but that's in balistic gel right? Is there a known needed number of FT/LB to penetrate 12 inches? I'm trying to see if there is a way to show if 9mm would still have enough every at 100y to penetrate effectivly.
     
  19. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member Admin Moderator Lifetime Supporter

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    This is where the math gets complicated. Penetration factors include not only the energy driving bullet, but bullet diameter, shape, stability on impact, etc. I see the 124 gr bullets like the Federal being right at 12 inches at 100 from a long barreled pistol. The 115 gr, probably not. Glaser- definitely not.
     
  20. Dallas53

    Dallas53 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    ballistic gel is used simply because it provides a consistent medium for testing. it's consistent regardless of what round is used during testing, and it gives a broad picture for comparison between different rounds.

    what you also need to look at are drop in the bullet as well. at 100 yards, the 9mm is going to drop way more than the 223 at the same distance. so you would have to compensate by holding higher with the 9mm than the 223 at the same distance.