AR 15- take down power

Discussion in 'AR-15 Discussion' started by dreweB, Oct 2, 2012.

  1. dreweB

    dreweB New Member

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    I'm interested how far is the limit of the .223 bullets take down power? Ultimately how far can you shoot a deer at knowing it will fall?
     
  2. kytowboater

    kytowboater Active Member

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    I've been looking too. Most people seem to think keep it well placed and inside 150 yards. I think 65-100 yards and a clean shot. As our expert said the heaviest bullet the rifle shoots well.
     

  3. primer1

    primer1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I'd say 100 yards. If your going deer hunting, I would borrow a gun that is bigger, but shot placement is the key if using a .223. I would use a 55-60 grain soft point for penetration.
     
  4. Vikingdad

    Vikingdad New Member

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    Bullet design and shot placement are of the utmost importance. With a good bullet and shot placement you should be fine. I haven't used .223 myself for deer though.

    "Take down" is really a misnomer as the bullet will not do that. There is no such thing really. What you are looking for is a good balance of large expansion and high velocity for a small caliber which will basically cause a hydraulic pressure wave inside the deers internal organs (this is in addition to the damage the bullet itself causes as it passes through the tissues).
     
  5. slog

    slog New Member

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    I'd say it could down a deer well past 200 yards if your aim and adjustments were on point. I probably couldn't hit anything past 200 yards if I tried. Long range shots are certainly easier with a heavier bullet, but the .223/5.56 should have enough energy to get into the heart at those distances. I'd just worry about wind conditions. Even the slightest discourse of such a light bullet would equal a miss or nonfatal hit at long range.
     
  6. purehavoc

    purehavoc New Member

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    Think human , a deer is relatively no bigger than a human . and we all know that .223 is capable of taking human life out to 500 yards . Now I would suggest HP or soft point rounds with good expansion in that 68-72 gr range and they need to be put in the boiler room , Do not expect it to drop in its tracks its not going to happen even in the boiler room it wont have the shock value of a larger .30 cal bullet . You dont need to use a .30 cal to kill a deer so long as your shot placement is spot on . I had a 62gr FMJ go completely thru 6 treated 4X4s stacked together at 150 yards thats roughly 21" of treated soft wood . bones and muscle arent that tough :)
     
  7. slog

    slog New Member

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    That's what I'm thinking, too. Even the 22LR has killing power past 200 yards. The ultimate question is: can the shooter hit the target precisely enough to hit a vital organ? That would be on a per-shooter basis. My limit is 200. Anything past that I wouldn't risk injuring the deer.
     
  8. Vikingdad

    Vikingdad New Member

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    In combat the use of soft point or expanding bullets is strictly forbidden by the Geneva Conventions. A hunting round will have more "take down" power due to expansion.
     
  9. Triumphman

    Triumphman Active Member

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    I've shot deer at 35yds with 30-06, 150gr CoreLoc gone through both lungs, took off top portion of heart and went out other side breaking 2 ribs---that big Buck just turned on his hind legs and ran back into brush. At least he did for about 10yds. Shot couldn't of been more perfect. Now as to a 223 doing all this damage-----NOPE. What you're gonna need for a perfect shot to drop animal in their tracks is a good HEAD or NECK shot with this small caliber. It can be done in the heart/lungs, but you'll need to follow right on their ass, as there won't be a large blood trail, but eventually that deer will go down. Keep range inside 250yds and you'll be ok for better velocity and knock-down, if you want to call it that. What the 223 does have is Shock Wave, and that's where you get lots of kills, just look what the 17HMR can do and it's even a smaller caliber.
    Del
     
  10. trip286

    trip286 New Member

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    Ok, my two cents.

    I don't view the .223/5.56 as a reliable man stopper. And yes, I have experience with it. Others do too, and they love it. That's fine.

    I simply wouldn't use a .223 on a deer unless I was damn sure of my shot. And I'd likely try for head shots.

    MHO, YMMV.
     
  11. texaswoodworker

    texaswoodworker New Member

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    As trip said, don't use .223 unless you know you will hit what your aiming at. If you have good shot placement, .223 is great for deer. My grandparent's have been using one for years for that.
     
  12. willfully armed

    willfully armed New Member

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    You know this because you "read it" somewhere. They might forbid it, but it happens DAILY.





    Navy sniper's (SEAL) are authorized to engage targets with the 5.56 mk 262(77gr SMK) round out to 800 yards.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2012
  13. slog

    slog New Member

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    I can't remember exactly about twists, but I'm pretty certain that the twist required for heavier .223/5.56 bullets doesn't favor long range shooting. You'd be limiting yourself to a 1x12 twist and a varminter round like Hornady Varmint Express, not necessarily the greatest deer hunting round. I like varminter rifles personally, but I don't go for long range shots or hunt deer. My dad just uses a 30'06. With the price of them, you may as well just buy one of those for deer hunting. Just an opinion, though. I remember a guy in field and stream a long time ago that hunted deer with a ruger 10/22. Not a great idea but people will do it.
     
  14. willfully armed

    willfully armed New Member

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    ^^^^^^

    Don't just regurgitate things you hear!
     
  15. slog

    slog New Member

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    Not really regurgitating it. All I know is, light bullets (the kind I like) need a 1x12 to keep the bullet stabilized like a football in flight. Heavier need something totally different. Varminters are probably the most accurate AR's. They're not intended for cobmat, but hunting very small animals at medium to long range, and they're intended for shooting 40 grain bullets or lighter. If you shot a 60 grain out of a 1x12 you probably wouldn't hit crap farther than you could throw it.
     
  16. Vikingdad

    Vikingdad New Member

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    Dude, if I am mistaken in my statement then please show evidence of that. Just because it is done does not mean it is a violation to do so. I have no first hand knowledge in combat as I am not a veteran, but I am sure there are some veterans here who can tell you what sort of ammunition they were issued to use in combat and it does not include anything like what we use for hunting rounds.

    I personally have purchased, fired and do own thousands of rounds of military surplus ammunition as well as pulled bullets in .224 caliber and have never once encountered a single round of hollow-point, soft-point or otherwise expanding projectiles. These types of projectiles behave very differently from the hunting projectiles that I use in that same caliber. Without exception the military rounds that I have fired will and do pass through 12 inches of solid wood without significant distortion (expansion) to the projectile. I have never used military rounds on any animals, so I cannot speak to that.

    While much of what I know has been gained through reading, very little of that which I use was gained through my reading on the internet. Most of it was from reading the writings of acclaimed historians and writers who have first hand knowledge of the subjects. I have read accounts my Navy SEALs who have lamented the shortcomings of military combat rounds, particularly the .224 caliber, as it has a tendency to wound and not kill the target. One of note was Howard Wasdin who wrote in his book "SEAL Team 6" regarding the Black Hawk Down incident in Mogadishu where he would shoot the Somali fighters and they would not respond to being hit (this is with 5.56- he also used the .308 with better results).

    Don't underrate reading my friend. In the absence of real world experience it is far better than total ignorance.
     
  17. Sniper03

    Sniper03 Supporting Member Supporter

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    I would have to say using the 223 for deer 100 yards would be the max distance I would take a shot on a deer. And it would have to be a perfectly placed shot. The reason is as mentioned is there is a difference between rounds used in the military and rounds used for hunting. With the conventions adopted for military ammunition the rounds are restricted for combat. The objective there is also wounding an enemy soldier is sometimes better than killing him. So wounding is good! The reason is it takes more people away from the battle to take care of the wounded soldiers. With the hunting round we want quick kills and animals not to live with severe wounds or run off after the shot. So ammunition is much different for each purpose. But for deer and similar size game I would say no more than 100 yards for maximum effect. And even that will require excellent shot placement. I had my last deer in Texas last year shot with a Remington 7MM Rem Mag. And even with his heart and lungs mostly shredded he ran 50 yards just for an example. If I am going to shoot any animal I have the utmost respect for them and want them to die ASAP! So selecting the best round and caliber for the area and terrain you hunt is very important.

    03
     
  18. USEBOTHHANDS

    USEBOTHHANDS New Member

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    it can be done, but choose wisely with your ammunition selection.

    i took an ex- deer huntin with my .22 magnum (no, it's not legal, but it does, and has done EXCELLENT on deer since it was created).

    she shot a 122lb doe @ 45yds thru the shoulder, double-lunged her. she ran 40yds before collapsin. the round was a 40 grain HP.

    shot placement IS key, but kinetic energy to break thru hide, bone, ligament and tendons plays a major part in it also. cuz without the KE (@ yard), there is no penetration to achieve an ethical kill.

    i WOULD NOT have let her shoot the doe past 50yds with that rifle.
     
  19. slog

    slog New Member

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    This video demonstrates that even a 22LR would be lethal beyond 200 yards (if you feel like watching it). That lends more to the .223/5.56 being lethal at those ranges.

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUM1r_444CY[/ame]

    I have no doubts about small bullets' lethality. It's just the wind at long range, it takes a few shots to line up with the current conditions, and then if you're even slightly off you've just injured the deer, or mortally wounded it and given it time to run off somewhere and die slowly. Using a bigger bullet would negate the wind conditions a bit, giving you better placement, doing more tissue damage, etc.
     
  20. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    i beg to differ. lighter bullets do fine in shorter ranges up to 300-400 yards in the 223/556 then they lose velocity like mad and drop right into the dirt. to get out to longer ranges you need a much better coefficient than what you find in lighter varmint bullets. typically 77-80 grain .224 bullets are what is used at very long ranges up to 1000yards in the 80 grain variety. 69-77 is typically used for up to 700-800 yards.

    one of my AR15's is a precision rifle capable of .55 inch groups at 300 yards using 62grain bullets.

    the barrel

    [​IMG]

    the gun

    [​IMG]

    the group at 300. flier is from a 69grain SMK 3 at .55 are ss109 62 grain FMJBT. ran out of 109's and continued to shoot one more before cease fire was called using the SMK

    [​IMG]

    if you include the stray its still under half moa

    [​IMG]

    lighter bullets and faster twists are used at shorter ranges typically 350 or less for shooting varmints like prairie dogs and such where you want the speed to keep the trajectory flat as possible for a couple hundred yards. after that it bleeds off extremely rapidly making them very poor bullets for longer range stuff
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2012