AR-15 Lower Advice

Discussion in 'AR-15 Discussion' started by Cnynrat, Jan 17, 2009.

  1. Cnynrat

    Cnynrat New Member

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    I'm totally new to AR-15's. Along with about 1,482,548 other FNGs I've been thinking about getting a stripped lower and starting my own build. As much as anything else seems like it would be a fun project and a good learning experience.

    I've found a place that has S&W M&P-15 stripped lowers for $180. I don't see too many people talking about using this lower. Any opinions about it good, bad or indifferent?

    Thanks.

    Dave
     
  2. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    Okay, that had me laughing out loud....

    I had said it dozens of times, and I guess once more won't hurt ( :rolleyes: ) -

    A receiver is a receiver is a receiver is a receiver. Unless you are getting some piece of third world pot metal crap than you can change tolerances merely by pressing hard with your fingers, IT DOESN'T MATTER whose name is on the side.

    At this point in time, if you can find ANY stripped lower and YOU are comfortable with the price, I would urge you to buy it before someone else does and get the lower on the books.

    Is $180 a good price for a stripped S&W Lower? No, not in my opinion, it's robbery, but that is what they are going for now that Fruitcake Incorporated have taken power and will soon be banning these "dangerous" weapons.

    If you can get any lower, stripped or otherwise, I would urge you to do it unless you live in occupied Terror-Tory ( like NY, NJ, Mass or Kali ). If you don't live in one of those states, odds are very good you will be grandfathered in and will be "allowed' to keep the weapon should a new ( WHEN A NEW ) AWB comes back into place.

    Finding parts kits are extremely rare right now, but in due diligence for the forum, I have sent out several e-mails to some of the top suppliers asking for updates for the forum when they have kits in for purchase. Nothing new on that yet....

    So, good luck and feel free to post any questions you may have. The guys here LOVE building EBR's. :D

    JD
     

  3. Cnynrat

    Cnynrat New Member

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    I here ya, but it seems like most prices are north of $200 now, if you can find something in stock.

    So, unfortunately, I do live Kalifornia. My plan would be to build a Kali legal gun using a bullet button or similar mag release requiring a tool to drop the mag. If I understand correctly you're suggesting that maybe in Kali we won't be grandfathered if/when a new AWB takes effect. Have I got that right?

    I guess I would have thought the new AWB would be done at the federal level, and probably affect us all equally. I suppose there is a chance that the loonies in Sacramento might be encouraged by the recent turn of events to pile on with some new rules of their own. I'll have to think about that risk, but it's probably worth taking.

    Dave
     
  4. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    During the previous AWB, under Klinton 1, I was under the impression that everyone was grandfathered in. I was informed otherwise that people in NY and Mass had to "register" and/or turn in their previously owned AR's.

    Kali has been, for awhile now, the "breeding ground" for REALLY bad ideas that involve taking away guns and personal freedoms.

    It's not beyond the realm that your local Nazi's would try to tack something on and further restrict your freedoms.

    I don't know, and neither does anyone else, and THAT is the problem....

    There is no guarantee that you will be grandfathered in. There is also no guarantee that they WILL NOT grandfather you in.

    There is risk with either choice - but I would always error on the side of HAVING the firearm and MAKING them get it from me. Person to person sales laws are still a bitch for the authorities to prove/disprove. :D

    JD
     
  5. Cnynrat

    Cnynrat New Member

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    Well, there are many risks to consider. There is the risk of waiting, and seeing a new ban passed where you would have been grandfathered in if only you had the firearm. As you point out there is the risk of building a new firearm and not being grandfathered in. Of course, if you do build the firearm there is the always present risk of a boating accident.

    Dave
     
  6. bkt

    bkt New Member

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    Anvil Arms has stripped lowers for $140. There's nothing on their web page that implies they're out of stock, either. Might be worth a look to save some coin.

    And even if you do live in NY, MA, NJ, CA or similar state, now would be an outstanding time to buy.
     
  7. bobbyb13

    bobbyb13 New Member

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    Found a few

    A local dealer has a few stripped lowers. Pricey at $189.00, but they are charging him through the nose for them. If need ed PM me and I will put you in touch with him. Yeah, I am a FNG to.
     
  8. slowryde45

    slowryde45 New Member

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    Welcome to the world of evil black rifles, that can cause tears in the space/time continuum all by themselves. Or so I'm told :D

    Not sure who is making the lowers for S & W, but they do put out a very nice AR. Around these parts, north of your northern border ;), S & W lowers have been going out the doors at $225 :eek: So, is that $180 a good price, compared to around these parts.....uhmmmmmmm.....YEP! I almost gave in and picked one up at that price...but my conscience keeps pulling my hand away from my wallet.

    But if you can't find a better price, then I would say yes. If you can wait out the storm and the gamble of maybe getting one or not.....then I'd say no.

    Hopefully, this will all wash away, no ban will occur, or at most a modified version of the last ban, but it's anyone's guess at this point. Those of us who waited, may be S.O.L. and not get anything or have to PAY the price. Then again, nothing could happen and it could be back to biz as usual, with lower prices again.

    You could pick up that lower, and then find yourself at the mercy of the gougers who want almost that much for a lower parts kit now. Or with diligence and searching the net, you could find all the pieces necessary, albeit at a little higher price than usual, and have yourself a complete AR.

    If the name on the lower doesn't mean much, and to tell the truth as JD said, a lower is pretty much a lower, no matter what the salesman tries to tell you. It's all the other pieces in conjunction with it, and how they are assembled that will make the diference. LRB has lowers advertized at $109.95, and there are quite a few others in the sub $150 range. It just takes searching and luck. Then again, you may not want to hassle with having to find an FFL to have a lower transferred to, if you were to order on the net. So maybe that $180 isn't such a bad deal for you then.

    Either way you go...Good Luck with your choice, and again, welcome aboard. Anything else we can help you with, just post away. This a good bunch of guys, with a wealth of info and advice, willing to help. So you are in good hands.

    Slo
     
  9. Dick Manley

    Dick Manley New Member

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    1. There are major differences. A good portion of compies produce out of spec crap when they claim to be in spec. Olympics arms being the worst, I wouldnt use one as a door stop. Bushy, RRA, and DPMS are hit or miss. Stag is ok but they too have issues. The first gen Smith lowers left something to be desired (made by Stag) but ot are made by smith and are top notch. Some other reputable lowers are Larue, Sun Devil, Noveske (one the best), Spikes Tactical, Defensive edge.

    2. It does, read above mentioned text

    3. The suggested retail set by Smith (before the election hoopla) was $160. So your not paying to much over retail.

    -DM-
     
  10. Dick Manley

    Dick Manley New Member

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    I understand your a Mod and all, but I really dont know where you are getting your info. No one here (MA) had to turn anyhting in, and they were already "registered" through NICS and the state (State Form F/A-10)

    -DM-
     
  11. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    No, it doesn't matter. A receiver is merely a piece that will hold the quality components. if you have someone competitent putting the item together, who knows what he is doing and understands how to assemble a quality firearm, it doesn't matter who's name is on the side. I would put my hand built Olympic arms against any AR in your arsenal.

    Actaully we had a resident member here, RL357Mag, who informed that States in the North East were required to turn weapons over. I had never heard that, but the man was a quality poster and knew his stuff. I took him at his word....

    JD
     
  12. Dick Manley

    Dick Manley New Member

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    Im not gonna argue about whos gun is better and whose brand is better. I dont want to get banned on my first day. With the we will just agree to disagree.

    When the Perm ban went into effect her in MA a lot of people who had Permits did lose them b/c of prop OUI offenses (Drunk Driving) or other now disqaulifying acts and may have had to sell them because of it, but there are a ton of so called MA preban AR's and mags floating around here that fetch a pretty penny. Like $700 for a lower and such.

    -DM-
     
  13. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    Here is a thread where the possible ban was coming up and there was talk of what went on the first time.

    Now, as for the mythos of the AR-15 Receiver, I would love for you to explain to us how one one receiver is much better than another when built by someone who knows what they are doing, using quality parts with an end goal of building a fine performing weapon.

    I am not going to ban you for disagreeing with me. I haven't banned anyone who wasn't a spammer, but I have several discussions with people who have perpetuated the Internetz Myths that you have to buy the name brand guns, and go into debt doing it, to protect their family/property.

    it's simply not true and this is one of the true forums on the internet where the guys who have built their own, who have competed with weapons they built, have chipped in knowledge to help those that don't make $60K a year build and or afford a reliable AR weapon.

    Are there complete guns that come from a parts warehouse that aren't as good as a spec gun? Of course.

    Are there complete guns that come from Colt, or Noveske, or the mighty D&L Sports that got built on a Friday afternoon that don't perform? Of Course there are.

    To categorically dismiss an entire product line based on one person's say so is ridiculious.

    I would like to know the reasons, and the examples, that you have to prove that everyone should go into debt and purchase the most expensive AR's on the market because anything else is going to let us down when we need it most...

    JD
     
  14. Dick Manley

    Dick Manley New Member

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    I never said people should go broke building or buying a rifle. But I feel that they should buy a rifle with the best proven track record especially if they are going to stake thier life on its reliability.

    Rock River, Bushmaster, DPMS, Olympic Arms and several other companies (those state being the biggest culprits) have awful quality control, and cant even meet the military's TDP (Techincal Data Package). Food for thought on that, the military goes to the lowest bidder, but has a set of rules that must be followed strictly. The go as far as to have Govornment inspectors at the manufactuering plants inspecting these parts and complete rifles.

    The above named companies cant even get the little things right, like properly staking gas carrier keys or castle nuts, or installing the correct height front sight post (Correct one being "F" marked) or supplying the propper H buffers or extractor springs and extractor buffers. Or even doing HP or MPI testing. HP testing is high pressure testing and MPI is Magnetic Particle testing and both ensure that the bolts and carriers will have a long life and be able to stand up to rigorous use. What about using weaker barrel steel to save a couple of pennies per unit. And not having the propper 1:7 twist rates to shoot heavier than 60 grain bullets with good terminal ballistics performance.

    These compaines claim that they also have 556 Nato chambers and there are many documented instances where this is not the case. Many devolop problems when the end user tries to use 556 and have only used 223 up to that poin and then have extraction issues. They in turn have to have the chanber reamed and sure as **** the chambers are not truly 556.

    Then you get onto the subject of lowers and uppers, a lot of the lower tier companies do not stay within specs, I have seen uppers that do not line up with lowers (Oly arms) and lowers where mags will not fit properly or just the overall tolerances are to tight or to loose.

    Here are a few links that may clarify some of the info im talking about.

    http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA

    Comparison Chart of Major AR Brands - M4Carbine.net Forums

    http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19082

    When you factor in price to these rifles there really is no savings once you fix the problems that are fixable, I.E. extractor springs, buffers, fronts sight bases, action springs and buffers etc etc.

    The real bottom line is that for the common shooter that will shool less than 1,000 rnds a year these rifles are perfect. But for the end user who takes thier job,value of life and deployment of thier rifle seriously they just do not stack up.

    To me its like comparing a Hyundai Accent to a HMMV. you really have figure out what your role is, and where along the line you fit. Are you a plinker? Causual Shooter? Serous Minded Shooter? or Professional where you need the most reliable and best gear to aid in keeping you alive!

    DISCLAIMER: I am not a Subject Matter expert and I do not claim to be one. I have attained just enough information about this subject to get me by and thereby stay slightly informed. A great deal of this information was learned from some truly amazing professionals from another forum. I am just trying to help others become informed and not spend thier hard earned money on junk. Also for the record I also dont make $60K, try about $25k less.
    -DM-
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2009
  15. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    That post goes a long ways towards explaining YOUR position. Of the links, two are from m4carbine and one doesn't work. Well, M4 seems to have some firm beliefs, but there isn't anything knowledge wise that isn't covered here, but it's covered in more of a negative light.

    The fact of the matter is, you are talking about complete builds, put together by someone else, of which the "end user" has no input.

    One of the things that we completely stress here is that the person who is going to do the shooting, NEEDS to be involved with the rifle and needs to be involved in what is going on with the build and the performance.

    The more familiar the user is with the goings on, the more able they are to:

    1) Check the rifle prior to going to the range

    2) Diagnose the rifle while at the range

    3) Effectively clean and maintain the weapon.

    The receiver isn't the issue - The ability to put it together and make sure that the damn thing runs is the issue. If you have a moron putting it together, with sub par parts, you are going to get a sub-par weapon.

    If you know what goes into the weapon, if you understand how the weapon works, you can effectively make changes if you feel them necessary, but you will always be able to diagnose any problems - whether on the battlefield or at the range....

    JD