And here comes the inevitable hell.

Discussion in 'The Club House' started by Ghost1958, Jun 4, 2020.

  1. Ghost1958

    Ghost1958 Well-Known Member

    4,392
    4,786
    113
    Alex who?

    Just going on the COTUS as written and the opposing opinions to it usually thrown around by SCOTUS.
     
  2. Gatoragn

    Gatoragn Well-Known Member Supporter

    8,231
    6,903
    113
    Come now Ghost, everybody should know by now that SCOTUS Justices are the product of immaculate conception and born with perfect intellect. They should never be questioned by mere mortals.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2020
    Ghost1958 likes this.

  3. G66enigma

    G66enigma Well-Known Member

    1,550
    2,266
    113
    Ach. Came from the radio discussion and article, and I didn't double-check their content to verify stuff like dates. My bad, there.
     
  4. G66enigma

    G66enigma Well-Known Member

    1,550
    2,266
    113
    In the sense that power is politics, there's almost no way, in the long run, to avoid politically-driven opinions from court justices, whether SCOTUS or any other. It's just how mankind is built, intellectually. Power breeds a certain willingness and mentality, above and beyond whatever ostensible education and experience a person might have on the subject matter (legal and otherwise).

    In the sense that power tends to corrupt and skews ... I suppose "the great conspiracy" is as good a term to use for court justice and jurisprudence as anything else.

    And so, it shouldn't be a surprise we get skewed rulings that defy logic and reason, when attempting to reinterpret things. They're only human. All too human, at times, subject to the winds blowing just like everyone else. "Exalted" learned judges thought they might well be.

    Of course, the ideal is that we, the People, hire such folks partly for their apparent ability to forego such temptations and to ignore such "winds" blowing. But if the long history of case law is any guide, it's often clear how viable that hope is.

    Personally, I'd like to see a much more detailed "grilling" and vetting process, intellectually speaking, in terms of how a would-be judge thinks, how he/she evaluates facts and circumstances, to what degree he/she considers potential ramifications and the "winds" blowing in the culture when cases are considered. I think it's much too focused on the politically-motivated crap to be of much use, currently. But that's a whole other discussion.
     
    Ghost1958 and ellis36 like this.
  5. locutus

    locutus Well-Known Member Supporter

    21,944
    13,217
    113
    The courts are not always tight. Not even always logical.

    But unless someone comes up with a better system, I'll continue to support the Constitutional authority of the courts.
     
    Mercator likes this.
  6. G66enigma

    G66enigma Well-Known Member

    1,550
    2,266
    113
    A short op-ed on the nature of the anarchy going on across the U.S. this past couple of months.


    A few words on our Constitution @ The Times-News, Burlington NC, by Reece Gardner, 7/28/20.

     
    Ghost1958 likes this.
  7. Nmwabbit

    Nmwabbit Guest

    G66enigma, et al., sorry it is nothing to do with the constitution as there were no specificity regarding what those activities mentioned in the rehash of the hyperbole being spewed by everyone else, violated this country's citizens constitutional providence!

    to rehash the MO gun toting idiots against the masses who smashed 'THEIR Gate' is just further proof the author is trying to spread further unrest.

    Please understand, this member firmly believes this country's constitutional liberty(ies) have been violated, but unfortunately, like in Lincoln's case it will be the historians for discern and raise the red flags not the judicial nor legislative branch as envisioned by our founding fathers.

    as for the governors violating their own constitutions, again unless the people care...nothing will transpire and they will meekly move on to the 'new normal' mentality...

    all as George Orwell prophesied in his 1949 book 1984
     
  8. Nmwabbit

    Nmwabbit Guest

    has to be brought before the judicial system...
     
  9. G66enigma

    G66enigma Well-Known Member

    1,550
    2,266
    113
    An op-ed piece on the question of reform of law-enforcement and our pact with those who help us enforce the rule of law. A major bone of contention, evidenced through the demonstrations over the past couple of months.


    More Than a Few Bad Apples: Why Conservatives Should Back Police Reform @ The American Conservative, by Jane Sharl, 7/25/20.


    The ^above article includes a link to a thoughtful policy paper written in 2007 for the International Human Rights Law Institute that addresses some of these challenges to "reform": The Chicago Principles of Post-Conflict Justice (a PDF file at DePaul Univ.), by Dr. Anthony Bradley, author, professor of religious studies at King's College (NYC), and research fellow of The Acton Institute.
     
  10. G66enigma

    G66enigma Well-Known Member

    1,550
    2,266
    113
    One opinion about the distinction between "protest" and "sedition."

    Of course, it brings up the major question of whether we in fact should be going after "sedition" itself, or instead focus on the outright crimes of rioting, arson, wanton battery (ie throwing rocks/bottles at people), and similar. (So-called "sedition" law being government effectively protecting itself from dissent, whereas all the other laws against violence protect the people directly.)

    We can do both, IMO. Ignore the sedition aspect and its sticky slippery-slope risk, but yet focus, hard, on the riotous, violent, wanton endangerment (and worse) crimes being perpetrated by some individuals in such gatherings.


    Rioters in Seattle, Portland are seditionists, not protesters @ Fox News, 7/29/20.

     
  11. mrm14

    mrm14 Well-Known Member

    2,875
    234
    63
    You think it's bad now.... Just wait till after November 3rd. That's when all holy hell is going to break out.
     
    locutus, ellis36 and primer1 like this.
  12. Gatoragn

    Gatoragn Well-Known Member Supporter

    8,231
    6,903
    113
    https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/c...lor-no-knock-raid-shooting-will-be-difficult/


    [​IMG]
    Search for:
    [​IMG]


    Charging The Cops Involved in the Breonna Taylor No-Knock Raid Shooting Will Be Difficult
    by TTAG Contributor |

    Aug 04, 2020 |

    119 comments

    [​IMG]
    By Dylan Lovan, AP

    Despite mounting public pressure to file criminal charges nearly five months after Breonna Taylor’s death, prosecutors may face significant obstacles to bringing homicide-related charges against police officers who were shot at when sent to her house with a warrant, legal experts said.

    Tensions have swelled in her home town and spread far afield as activists, professional athletes and social media stars push for action while investigators plead for more patience. The warrant also has been called into question and, with federal officials looking into potential civil rights abuses, the case could reach beyond the officers on the scene that night.

    Taylor, a 26-year-old Louisville emergency medical tech studying to become a nurse, was shot multiple times March 13 after being roused from sleep by police at her door. The warrant was approved as part of a narcotics investigation into a suspect who lived across town, and no drugs were found at her home.

    Attorney General Daniel Cameron, the first African American elected to the job in Kentucky, has declined to put a timetable on his decision since taking over the case in May.

    “It’s a tough issue. He has to figure out whether there’s probable cause to believe that there was an unreasonable use of force” by the officers, said Christopher Slobogin, director of the criminal justice program at Vanderbilt University. Slobogin said attorneys for the officers would certainly raise the warrant as a defense in a criminal case.



    [​IMG]
    Armed members of the “NFAC” march through downtown Louisville, Ky., toward the Hall of Justice on Saturday, July 25, 2020. Hundreds of activists demanded justice for Breonna Taylor during the demonstrations in her hometown. Taylor, a 26-year-old EMT, was fatally shot when police officers burst into her Louisville apartment using a no-knock warrant during an investigation. (AP Photo/Timothy D. Easley)



    Cameron has seen increasing pressure from protesters in recent weeks. Dozens of activists who went to his Louisville home were arrested after they wouldn’t leave his yard, and last week, an armed militia marched into downtown and demanded that Cameron make his decision within a month. Taylor’s family and multiple cultural luminaries — from LeBron James to Oprah Winfrey — have called for three police officers who were at her home to be charged with her killing. Oprah put Taylor on the cover of her O magazine this month.



    [​IMG]
    Courtesy oprahmag.com



    Taylor’s boyfriend, Kenny Walker, was with her at the apartment and fired a shot at Louisville police Sgt. Jonathan Mattingly after the door was broken down. Mattingly was struck in the leg and returned fire, along with other officers who were outside the apartment.

    Taylor, unarmed, was shot several times in her hallway and died on the scene. The officers on the scene were not wearing body cameras and the department has said there is no video of the raid.

    The warrant they were carrying has come under scrutiny, and the police lieutenant who sought it, Joshua Jaynes, has been placed on administrative leave during the investigation. Attorneys for Taylor’s family said it was based on erroneous information that a drug dealer was sending packages to Taylor’s apartment.

    The FBI is investigating the case for civil rights violations, and agents at its state-of-the-art crime lab in Quantico, Virginia, are examining evidence.

    Walker told police investigators he heard knocking but didn’t know who was at the door. Police had secured a controversial no-knock warrant that allows for sudden entry, but Mattingly insisted to investigators they knocked and announced themselves before entering.

    Louisville has since banned no-knock warrants in a local ordinance named for Taylor.

    Slobogin and other experts noted that it may be challenging for prosecutors to push for charges against police officers who were shot at, prompting them to fire back.

    The warrant, “combined with the fact that they were fired upon, would make for a powerful defense argument that they acted in valid self-defense while conducting a lawful police operation,” said Sam Marcosson, a University of Louisville law professor who has closely watched the local case.

    Marcosson and Slobogin said if the warrant were proven to be obtained fraudulently, the officers would have had to be aware of that, another difficult legal hurdle.

    Police department protocol allows the use of lethal force when officers feel threatened, giving some measure of latitude to their judgment at the time.

    But the warrant does not necessarily immunize the police, Slobogin said. Even if they had a valid no-knock warrant and properly announced themselves, “blazing away, the way they did, arguably is an excessive use of force.”
     
  13. SK2344

    SK2344 Active Member

    256
    181
    43
    This is the Ideal End Game but and this is a large BUT, I don't think so and this time, the uprising is quite different than other times! Welcome to the 21st Century! God Help America!
     
    Nmwabbit likes this.
  14. Nmwabbit

    Nmwabbit Guest

    the “new” normal should be quite interesting!
     
  15. Ghost1958

    Ghost1958 Well-Known Member

    4,392
    4,786
    113
    Theres alot of legalese mumbo jumbo there when the case boils down to one simple statute in ky law.

    That statute clearly states that lethal force against a police officer in the performance of his duty is prohibited IF THE PERSON USING DEADLY FORCE KNEW OR REASONABLY SHOULD HAVE KNOWN THE THE PERSON WAS A PEACE OFFICER.

    There has not been a shred of evidence that Walker knew, or should have known these rap dancers in plain cars and plain clothes were cops.
    On the contrary there have been multiple witness statements that the officers did not ID or even knock . At all. Also born out by Walkers 911 call .
    Barring some mystical evidence being discovered that Walker could have known these were police officers , the cops by statute were no more than thugs breaking and entering and afforded no more right to SD than any other thugs kicking in a door to a dwelling.

    That's the bottom line . Did Walker know or should he have known they were cops.
    To date no evidence other than the officers themselves indicates he could have known. There is likely a reason the incident report was almost blank.
    And charges against Walker being dropped in days does not bode well for the police making the case he knew he was firing on police officers .

    The problem they have here is normally if innocent home owners do not realize what is happening and resist they die . Hence only one story. Walker survived as did Taylor for 5 to 10 min but no officer offered to aid her.

    It's also almost impossible to prove a home owner knows the guys busting down his door screaming police are actually police. Any thug can yell police.
    That's why they dont do them in my neck of the woods anymore . They were guaranteed to fired on. So they quit.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2020
    primer1 likes this.
  16. primer1

    primer1 Well-Known Member Supporter

    11,623
    3,710
    113
    No knock warrants need to end unless extreme circumstances rule out other options. Waiting until another bad example occurs and banning these raids on a local level will only add to the already growing list of people needlessly dieing.

    One source of bad information is not a valid reason for the warrant, several sources of solid information should be required when they can't nab the suspect via other means.
     
  17. Mercator

    Mercator Well-Known Member

    13,102
    2,834
    113
    The document is a forgery. The mixed race-class hatred is real, and showing.

    Do you want an open border with Pakistan, huh? Bet you voted Brexit for yourself.
     
    locutus likes this.
  18. G66enigma

    G66enigma Well-Known Member

    1,550
    2,266
    113
    Another aspect of threat: governmental directives of a, shall we say, constitutionally-questionable sort.

    Such as the unilateral, Executive Order crap coming from the Administration that bypasses the sole, explicit responsibility of Congress to raise monies and tax the people to extend COVID-related unemployment benefits to people. With zero authority, with zero qualms over direct sidestep of Congress' responsibility. Threat of dictator-grade actions, there. Effectively, taxation without representation, doing it through the Executive.

    A revolutionary war was fought over this point.

    Of course, many people don't have the first clue about the threats of this. They'll just be happy to "get theirs" and move on. So long as they get theirs.

    Lemmings and cliffs come to mind, with this sort of thing.

    [​IMG]
     
    primer1, Ghost1958 and Nmwabbit like this.
  19. Ghost1958

    Ghost1958 Well-Known Member

    4,392
    4,786
    113
    Agree to a point

    Other than hostage situations or kidnappings no knock warrants should be outlawed. Banned absolutely except those two reasons with no qualified immunity for officers when they serve onem

    As long as cops can get one for any other reason except the two mentioned they will fabricate, lie, etc to get one.
     
    jigs-n-fixture likes this.
  20. locutus

    locutus Well-Known Member Supporter

    21,944
    13,217
    113
    No knock warrants give the good guys an advantage over the "trash"
    in society.:)
     
    Mercator likes this.