An Attempt to Educate

Discussion in 'Legal and Activism' started by TekGreg, Oct 8, 2011.

  1. TekGreg

    TekGreg Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

    A recent post by Winds-of-Change in another thread regarding a Sheriff's Deputy's tazing reminded me of a recent dialogue I had with a healthcare professional, a nurse with 12 years of experience, about a tazing death that had just been in the news, a college student who had an undiagnosed heart condition and a history of fighting with law enforcement before. Of course, the media had played up Tazers as dangerous, 50,000 volt death machines forcing electricity into someone with NO IDEA what health problems exist! Because of the media blitz, many local LE departments suspended use of their Tazers, with only two chiefs having the cojones to announce they were keeping their department's Tazers in use. :eek:

    I had known this nurse for a while due to an ongoing health condition, so I was able to short form the conversation, but check out how the conversation went:

    Me: "So tell me, Tazers: For or against?"

    Nurse: Makes an ugly face and immediately says, "I don't like the idea of pumping 50,000 volts into someone that you have no idea what health problems they may have. You can never be sure what something like that can do to a person."

    Me: "A valid point. Have you ever been exposed to Tazer tactics other than what is in the media?"

    Nurse: "No, we have the radio on here all day and it's usually just what comes across it."

    Me: "Well, I was trained as a police officer and we were taught a principle called "Escalation of force." Basically it says I can only use one "step" of force greater than what my attacker uses against me. If he only attacks with his hands, I have to use a non-lethal weapon, like mace, or I could go to my baton if it was going badly for me."

    Nurse: "Really? I never knew that..."

    Me: "Well, the media is meant for entertainment, not education - remember that!"

    We both laughed.

    Nurse: "Okay, true, but what does that have to due with what happened to the poor college student."

    Me: "The Tazer, since it's introduction, has fallen into the "step" of force right before a baton beating or firearm. When I pull a baton and start to swing, I try to strike limbs, to bring the suspect down, but in a fight, it is often hard to 'only' hit a limb, and often a face, skull or spine can be struck, permanently disabling the suspect."

    Nurse: "Ouch..."

    Me: "well, my other option I mentioned was my firearm. Many times an officer uses a Tazer when he could legally draw his firearm and shoot the suspect. Now, as a nurse, which is easier on the body: two lead slugs half an inch across, or a two-second shot of 50,000 volts?"

    Nurse: "Well, obviously the voltage..."

    Me: "And that's why the Tazer was invented - to SAVE lives! But the media has made it sound like officers use it as a 21st-century torture device, not the life-saving wonder it has been. When you think of the over 4,000 people last year that were tazed that could've been shot, it makes the four or five that died a very small percentage of failure. Of course, now public pressure has forced all the local departments to stop using the Tazer, so the number of shootings will increase, but I'm sure the media will step right up to take responsibility for that."

    Nurse: "Wow, I never looked at it like that."

    Me: "Well, to be fair, it's never been presented like that! But be honest with me: Has this changed your mind at all about the use of Tazers as a life-SAVING device?"

    Nurse: "Oh yeah! It's obvious the media has been one-sided in how they reported it. It's too bad police quit using you think they'll reinstate them any time soon?"


    This whole conversation took less than five minutes and completely slapped the media spin in the opposite direction. I used a popular event in the media to bring up the event and then my own training (Doesn't have to be LEO, can be any private, public or family training) to "educate" her on the proper use. I didn't go into a lot of detail - people hate to be bogged down and they have things to do at work - but if you can turn it into a little lesson-ette that they can remember and pass on to others then that is one more person that we have on our side and that will listen to the media with a little more careful ear! You might want to try it the next time you have a chance to chat with an acquaintance about recent events. I like to do this with clerks, cashiers, nurses - anyone that has a lot of contact with the public and may spread it like wildfire. :cool:
  2. rjd3282

    rjd3282 New Member

    I guess the moral of the story should be if you don't want tazed don't fight with law enforcement. The tazees should be taking responsibility for being tazed. I'm 57 years old and never been arrested it just isn't that hard to stay out of trouble.

  3. TekGreg

    TekGreg Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

    rjd, I see your in Ohio as well. The problem is, no one is being tazed because the media got the public to put pressure on and got the departments to stop using them. I imagine they will sneak them back into use (or I HOPE so) because, if for some reason I ever temporarily lost my senses and was raving on my front lawn, I would LIKE the officer to have the choice of a Tazer to lay me out instead of ventilating my chest! I agree that those tazed are responsible for their actions, the problem is getting the media to report it that way.
  4. Vincine

    Vincine New Member

    I would think the LEO agencies would be able to swing public opinion back in favor of the option by making an announcement to effect of, “Well, we’ll just have to go back to shooting people if we can’t use Tasers.” ;)
  5. 762

    762 Active Member

    cant agree more sir. dont wanna get tazed? dont put yourself in a situation where it might happen. simple as that.
  6. ArizonaLawman

    ArizonaLawman New Member

    Pretty much goes to my theory of "DO WHAT THE NICE OFFICER TELLS YOU".

    I was trained in the ASK, TELL, MAKE school of being a cop.

    I am going to ASK you. If you do not comply, I am going to TELL you. If you still do not comply, I am going to MAKE you. That will be unpleasant (at best) for you, and I will be stuck writing a USE OF FORCE report. WILL be sorted out.
  7. BenLuby

    BenLuby New Member

    I've had problems with a total of two cops in thirty plus years of driving.
    One was just a dick, but I yes sirred him to the point he just gave up and gave me a warning.
    Others were in the UP in Michigan, and their entire police force was a bunch of retards. I gave up when the Chief threatened to lock me up for 'something', after I called them all idiots in their office.
    Seems not a one of them could pick up a dang phone to verify any information.
    Otherwise? I've never gotten rude with a cop, never saw a reason to. You can politely state your case with law enforcement, and it does a lot better than the bleepitybleepbleepbleeping bleep!! approach a lot of people seem to use.
    I even thank them for the tickets!!
  8. widowmaker

    widowmaker New Member

    It has been my experience on both sides of the badge that being an a$$ is contagious.
    If I stopped you and you were polite and did as I asked it was safe and a little more pleasant for both of us. If you were an a$$ then I could be too.

    When I got stopped I was always courteous and polite. Many times it got me out of the ticket or at least the officer would write me for 55 in a 45 instead of the 65 I was actually doing. LOL Of course there is always the "Dirty Harry" out there that feels that the badge and gun makes him God. Thankfully, they are few and far between.
  9. Chainfire

    Chainfire Well-Known Member Supporter

    The few interacions I have had with cops, over a long lifetime, have been generally positive. I ran a State Trooper off the road one day and didn't get written up for that one. I have always been polite and have gotten very few tickets because of that. I had one bad incident, where after having a hand-gun stuck in my face by an idiot, the cops treated me like crap, threatning to take me to jail cause I was highly pissed and visibly upset. I became "disorderly" when the cops returned the revolver to the perp, after he had struggled with them to give it up. It was a crazy situation. I still haven't figured out what was going on.
  10. TimKS

    TimKS Well-Known Member Lifetime Supporter

    I'll call your 57 years and raise you 63.......... :D It's not tough at all to stay out of trouble.
  11. PowerViolence

    PowerViolence New Member

    I was almost tazed once, it's really brings you back to reality when you see that red dot on your chest. Long story short, I was almost tazed complying with cops orders, and i was arrested. Longer story shorter everything was dropped in a courtroom and one of the 2 cops was suspended.
    I understand the escalation of force, but I feel like the tazer is the first response (in my humble experiences), which is wrong. I've been pulled over and been sitting in the passenger seat when a cop walks up to my window with the tazer pointed. Wheres the escalation in that?
  12. winds-of-change

    winds-of-change The Balota's Staff Member

    My Mom always told us never run from the police. If you did nothing wrong, you have no reason to run and if you DID do something wrong, running will only make it worse. :)

    IGETEVEN New Member

    Results from obvious STUPIDITY should be painful, as well as attitude adjusting and life changing.

    If not, how else would one learn? ;)
  14. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

    Without getting into the "some cops should not have a badge" thing- if anyone thinks that a Taser (correct spelling, BTW) is an instrument of torture, allow me 5 minutes with a baton- or even better, the old fashioned #501 Convoy Blackjack. 16 ounces of leather covered lead on the end of a spring. PRIOR to the Taser, and PRIOR to Mace, an LEOs "less lethal" range of response was to slap the snot outa you.

    If I had a choice between a Taser shot and getting whupped with a baton, I'd take the Taser. While we we trained to go for ankles, wrists, knees and elbows, anyone that thinks there have not been fatal or disabling strikes with a hitting implement never hear of David and Goliath.
  15. ArizonaLawman

    ArizonaLawman New Member

    Throughout my entire career, I treated EVERYONE like a professional. I was unfailingly polite, right up to the moment that someone was a complete douchetard....then the nice officer went away.

    I didn't expect or demand that someone call me "sir". "Officer" was good enough, even "Sarge". Respect the badge, if not the man or woman wearing it. I ALWAYS called adults "sir" or "ma'am", and teens "young sir" or "young miss". I did this for a couple of reasons....number one, if I call you sir or ma'am, it sets the tone for our whole interaction. I give respect, and show that to get that respect, it MUST be a two-way street and hence NOT adversarial. It also showed that you were dealing with a professional, and would be treated as such at all times. I would come down on an officer like a ton of bricks if they were condescending or rude to the general earn your badge, but you must earn respect also.

    When dealing with the gang members while on gangs-narcotics, I would call them by their name because I interacted with them A LOT, and it showed that "I know WHO you are, I know WHAT you are, and you are NOT going to get over on me". But even these turds KNEW that I would always do what I said I was going to word on the street was gold. Even the hard core 'bangers knew I wouldn't do them dirty IF they were straight with me. I would overlook a dime bag or a MINOR and I do mean very MINOR parole violation if it would get us some sway or information we deemed critical to a specific case. These relationships made my transition to homicide easier becasue when on a case, I could get info another D with no street relationships couldn't. With all of that...they ALL knew that if they weren't straight with me, or tried running game on me, I would fall on them like the fist of an angry God...but they KNEW it, and therefore knew how to deal with me.

    Dealing with kids....I ALWAYS tried to reinforce the "If you're in trouble, find a police officer or fireman" advice we got when we were kids. I used to keep teddy bears and "quiet toys" in the trunk of my cruiser to give to kids when they were scared, or while dealing with their folks.

    There are many parts you have to play as a cop...douchebag with a badge is NEVER one of them. Even when you have to be tough as nails, or go to use of force...if you're a pro and always work with integrity...your day will always be shorter than a bad day.
  16. TekGreg

    TekGreg Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

    C3, absolutely right on the "Taser" spelling - sorry about my post but for some reason my phone's dictionary keeps auto-correcting it wrong! I gotta figure out how to remove words from my dictionary as well - I've only added them until now as has, apparently, my daughter, my wife, my friends...