+1 ........Hello all/Responce to Striker and HK Big Daddy
Yes, I totaly agree with H&K Big Daddy, for accuracy, the AR wins hands down! Thats due to tighter tollerences, a better made, better barrel, and components! As for folks talking about shooting out to 500 yards and killing it? Thats another Matter alltogether! Unless your talking punching holes in a paper target, forget that!
The AK will never beat the AR as far as being as accurate, but more than makes up for it in Reliability, resistenance to envornment, and lack of knowledge by users! Com-Bloc designs favor long term use and you can still see models of the AK-47 left over for early 50's in many countries and still rocking!
That pretty much answers your question.Hello all/Responce to Striker and HK Big Daddy
Ron L here = SERESURPLUS
Yes, I totaly agree with H&K Big Daddy, for accuracy, the AR wins hands down! Thats due to tighter tollerences, a better made, better barrel, and components! As for folks talking about shooting out to 500 yards and killing it? Thats another Matter alltogether! Unless your talking punching holes in a paper target, forget that!
The AK will never beat the AR as far as being as accurate, but more than makes up for it in Reliability, resistenance to envornment, and lack of knowledge by users! Com-Bloc designs favor long term use and you can still see models of the AK-47 left over for early 50's in many countries and still rocking! I've seen some M-16A1's recovered in Peru, that the "Shinning path" had gotten on the Black market, these were Military Captured M16's From Viet Nam period and were sad loking and working! Many had anodizing worn through the finish, many did not still Function! Same lot of weapons had M-60 Light machine Guns, sadder condition still! In that same lot, wwre RPK, and RPD Machine guys, rusty as hell, worse for wear, but cleaned up, painted and re-issued to Poilce Units that next day! Big difference in what will last, what will be around and what stands the long test of time inthe field?
Qualification at Parris Is. MCRD with standard issue M-16 A4 is 500 yd hits to a 24" target area....that's a kill or at least a severe wound, and they do graduate more than 5 Marines every 3 months...let's see an AK47, AK-74, or RPK do that!Hello all/Responce to DGunsmith
Ron L = SERESURPLUS
Yes, 600 Yards, custom gun, Custom Ammo, thats not what the average AR is nor what an Average AK is? It's comparing Porche to Yugo's? Show me 5 Folks in the US Military that can use an M-16 and het someone at 500 yanrds and kill them? Remember, I compeated with an M-1A, and I remember all the "STORIES" just never saw it done, by HUMANS!
All I'm saying is 500 yd. shots are required in the Corp. And 24" targets are not big, they are "combat" targets and they are that size to replicate a human torso. The guns used to score on those targets are well used combat rifles, not new issue, and certainly not custom. The Marines are known for their frugality, in fact they're down right cheap. From the day they join to the day they leave they pay for their own soap, washcloths, toothpaste, and meals. Common practice in the Corp is to steal from the Army when the opportunity presents itself! Pretty soon they'll be charging for their ammo! AS far as the perfect weapon there isn't any, and it certainly isn't the AK - a 250 yd weapon at best. Most WWII bolt action weapons had sights calibrated to 2000yds. The early No.1 MkIII SMLE had "volley" sights off to the side. I know in combat in recent conflicts like Vietnam 2000 yd shots were rare (see Carlos Hathcock), but they are possible. No hunter should ever attempt a shot out to 500 yds. but I know for a fact that during WWII our GI's were shooting across the Rhine and hitting Germans with Garrands. The limitation of the .223 dictates a maximum effective range of 600yds. The original question is which is more accurate and why. The AK can't hold a match to the AR - the reason? At long range it is ballistically inferior, at short range it's barrel length, lousy sights, and sloppy mechanism don't lend themselves to target-grade accuracy. As a CQ battle rifle they excel.HELLO ALL/RESPONCE TO RL357
Ron L = SERESURPLUS
Thats what I'm Talking about, Shooting at Oversized targets, with Rifles at Prone Position, with Paper as a Target? A Far Cry from Combat and Custom Loads, with Custom Rifles is not whats happening in the "REAL WORLD"! If you like the design of the AR-15/M-16 and all GREAT, but trying to make it into a 500 yard and beyond death ray, is Just SILLY! Most folks don't shoot past 400 yard reliably hitting anything, and in "COMBAT" life blurs the sites a tad? I won't makes claims the AK can't hold if you won't hold the AR up as some sort of perfect weapon, OK? Both have thier UP's and down and it pays to remember that?
With all due respect, you're not hearing me, and I don't wish to argue this point. What I've been saying is that MC Recruits use standard issue M-16's ( old ones) and standard ball ammo (that's what is issued) to qualify at 500 yd. torso-sized targets. Every Recruit has to qualify at that range to graduate. I am not talking about "custom" rifles firing target-grade ammo, I am talking about basic training in the MC. As far as weapons preferrence, that's a personal choice and I am not commenting on your choice as much as I am the accuracy of the M-16 and ballistic superiority of the standard issue 55gr. FMJ 5.56 over the standard issue 125 gr. 7.62 x 39. The AK is a fine weapon for CQB as has been proven over many years, but even if the 7.62 x 39 could reach the 500 yd mark accurately it will have dropped 23 inches MORE than the 5.56 at the same range given a 200 yd. zero and loaded to the max velocity of 2500 fps. It is NOT a long range weapon. I own an SKS and I enjoy shooting it, but it won't come close to being anywhere near as accurate as any AR-15, and the SKS is more accurate than the AK-47.HELLO ALL/Responce to RL357
Ron L here = SERESURPLUS
Once again, It seems to me, your taking a "Memory" of what you remember, Your current use of Custom Loads, with a Rifle that the Troops are not using and trying to Prove that for some sort of Benchmark for what a Normal Battle rifle will do? Your Mixxing apples with Cucumbers? Hitting a paper target at 500 yards and Kilinging someone at theose Ranges is a FAR DIFFERENT MATTER! I've met Carlos and hs son and in fact, shot against his son in a few leg matches in Va, (Got my *** Handed to me), but Carlos and his son, as REALLY THE EXCEPTION, NOT THE RULE! The M-16/AR family are good weapons, other wise I'd not be building another one my self, But they are not a Rifle that Troops use all the time to make 500+ Shots i the real world, not matter how much you want them to! Facts are facts and A lot of other rifles Take the "Sniper Role" for that reason! I like AK better, thats not a fact in dispute, but I do lok to point out it's faults along with it's positive aspects! I'm not sure your applying the same sort of Honesty to your decription of the AR/M-16 Family? Not trying to start a Flame war, But I don't see your opinion as Valid?
HELLO ALL/RESPONCE TO RL357
RON L = SERESURPLUS
OH, I'm hearing you just fine! I'm just not "Buying it"! I'd been in the Military for over 24 years 8 as a "Navy Corpsman"! I think I remember your USMC Quals as I was assigned with the marines for many a year! Recruits do use old Rifles, and the targets were a lot bigger than 24 Inches? I also remember that at 500 yards, many a marine had to re-qualify? Plus, by the time the .223 got there, it might punch paper, not a lot else? I'm not trying to "Flame" you either, but I don't think your placing reality, with real life?
Unfortunately Carlos did die in the mid-90's, I believe of cancer. You are right, his stalking skills and patience were second to NONE.
As far as the 5.56 goes I am not making this up. My son graduated last year from Parris Is. and they still qualify at 500yds. on a 30"h x 24"w target which simulates a human torso. At 500 yds that is not a big target, in fact I doubt that I could even see it today, at 50 yrs. old, much less be able to put the front sight on the same spot every shot. This qualification is a fact that you can easily check out if you like. They use old M-16's (of course they were re-fitted by the armorer) and standard ball ammo, which happens to be quite accurate, that's why I use H335, it's what the arsenals use. Whether they have to requalify is not the issue - the issue is that if they don't qualify at 500yds, they don't graduate until they do, because as I'm sure you've heard from being ex-Navy, "Every Marine is a Rifleman", and that includes the women as well!
I guess we will have to agree to disagree, but NO ONE WILL EVER TELL ME THE AK IS AS ACCURATE AS THE AR, not even close.Hello all/Responce to RL357
Nope, Never meant to say you were making it up! I participated in a lot of "Leg matches" at Dam Neck VA, as well was assigned to the Fist and 3RD Marines a time or two, So I do know your qual standards! I will agree that hits at 500 yards are Possible, seen it done, I know that many a Marine can and will do it, but as far as always doing that as a combat arm, it's just overstated! .223 at that range is not gonna get the job done, if we can't agree on that, we will have to agree to dis-agree?
Yes, I wish you could have met and Known Carlos! I was not what one would say was close enough to say I was his "FRIEND", but I did meet and did get to see the man in action and he will be Missed indeed! His son, had a lot of that same charm and grace and I'm sure he misses his Dad a lot? He was arare man, at a Bad time and always would have that Ikmpish smile on his face, if we'd ask what he was smiling about, he'd just chuckle and say It's a "Marine thing", you Squids never would understand? LOL I feel my life is richer having know him RON L = SERESURPLUS
Do you know if he (Carlos) used a Rem.700 or Win. Mod.70? I read a book called "Dead Center" written by a Recon Sniper in the early part of Vietnam when they were issued either M-14's or Win. Mod 70's (snipers choice) The author went on to say the Rem.700 was neither as accurate nor did it have the range of the Mod.70. I am assuming the Rem.700 was chambered in .308 for the author to make those statements.Hello all/Responce to Rl357
Nope, never said AK as accurate as AR! Said AK works in Field as well, if not better than AR due to the design, parts rugged reliability and ease of mainenance! We will have to dis-agree what we both would take into battle! I like AR, but I know and Trust AK a lot better?
Yes, Carlos had a son, Trying to remember his name? He was a Scout Sniper 15-18 years ago in the Marines! I met him a few times, but he was close to his Dad, but different sort? Yup, I don't recall Carlos Book title, I do have an autografed pic of him with his Bolt 308, off the dunes in Dam Neck! I'll treasure that forever! Like I said, his son Might have retuied by now? That was a long time ago he was active duty and a senior sgt then? All in all, a very good man, a Great marine and a man who did the JOB! He never kissed any ***, he took a lot of serious wounds and never whined and I miss the man he was and will always be to me?
Let there be NO ARGUEMENT - Carlos Hathcock fielded a sporter version ( heavy barrel ) of a Winchester Model 70 chambered in .30-06Do you know if he (Carlos) used a Rem.700 or Win. Mod.70? I read a book called "Dead Center" written by a Recon Sniper in the early part of Vietnam when they were issued either M-14's or Win. Mod 70's (snipers choice) The author went on to say the Rem.700 was neither as accurate nor did it have the range of the Mod.70. I am assuming the Rem.700 was chambered in .308 for the author to make those statements.