Aim off

Discussion in 'General Handgun Discussion' started by Trooper7687, Sep 26, 2011.

  1. Trooper7687

    Trooper7687 New Member

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    Posted this in the Glock dept earlier but thought I should widen the information pool up a bit. Signed out a new Glock (G17/9MM) from the armoury and went to fire a few check groups on the range, the last Glock I had was hitting slightly high and left but the the one I have now seems to be hitting a lot higher and a lot more left ( can't get my old Glock back as it was involved in an incident in work that required it to be sent to the evidence locker). The Glock I have now requires me to aim at the right knee of a Fig 11 target to be hitting centremass at 30mtrs, to me this seems to be a bit excessive for aim off, I can still qualify to carry under the rules and regs and can pass the tests but i'm still not that happy with the pistol but am required to use the service pistol as issiued, . Has anyone else had this problem, if so how did you get it rectified.
     
  2. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    one of the many issues i have with glocks is the unnatural hold you have to use in breaking your wrist down to get the thing on target. a natural grip has the barrel pointing well above target. i think it makes the pistol a very difficult handgun to shoot well if you have experience on better designed hanndguns

    but are you 100% it not you??

    to see if your grip or trigger pull is the issue have a friend load a mag with a snap cap or dummy round in the mag so you dont know when the click is coming. this will give instant feed back if your flinching or gripping too hard or what.

    [​IMG]

    even though your stuck with a so-so firearm it should be mechanically zeroed from the factory

    if you find the above not the case (most of the time it is the shooter not the gun) then you can try drifting the rear or front sight to at least get the windage right. a small punch and hammer and only very slight movement will get it inline.
     

  3. Trooper7687

    Trooper7687 New Member

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    Thanks for he response, Have tried a few things like drifting the sights, having the range safety officer stand and watch my posn and hold as I'm firing and still the pistol seems to hit high and left, aim centre mass and strikes all land left shoulder area, grouping is not a problem tight group (5rds) was 4cm (1.5in), loose group was 10cm (4in), these were fired in slow time not combat type rapid fire. To adjust POI to centre mass requires a 12in drop and 6in right (at 30mtrs) of POI, this seems excessive to me, can still shoot to the required level to stay qualified with the pistol as required by work, but not a happy bunny. Unfortunatly this is the Pistol I have to carry on duty and off duty.
     
  4. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    the other issue can be sight picture.

    pretend the x is centered as in target hard to represent here

    lower cas i means that portion of sight is shorter

    x
    III
    this normal

    x
    iIi

    this will shoot high

    x
    IiI

    low

    its just hard to imagine even a glock being that far off target 12 inches is a lot of distance
     
  5. Trooper7687

    Trooper7687 New Member

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    thaks Jon, took the oppertunity to use the indoor range over lunch, benifits of being an RCO, and used my old firestar 9mm compact ( my Dads old PPW built in 1978) and was able to knock the centre out of the target :confused:, tried a few more with the Glock, result still high and left, really getting upset with the fact that because I can make the bare minimum pass I wont be issiued a different Pistol. I'll have to buy private and apply to be allowed to carry as my service side arm and have to maintain the 9mm as standard, not allowed the firestar as it falls below the min mag capacity, having thoughts about a CZ75.
     
  6. utf59

    utf59 New Member

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    I'd suggest letting the range safety officer shoot it. You know you can shoot a different gun. If other people have the same awful result, maybe it can be reported up your chain of command. So maybe you can get a different gun or at least get the sights replaced.
     
  7. Trooper7687

    Trooper7687 New Member

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    Writing a range report now, so by the rule that everything here operates at the speed of continental drift, the report should make it to the CO by the time i've had to carry the thing into a situation that I may need it. Will be changing the sights this evening and hitting the range soon after. Guess the old adage is true about your weapon being built by the lowest bidder.
     
  8. canebrake

    canebrake New Member

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    I was going to suggest the same, have someone else shoot the POS and see if its you or the gaston.

    Is there a ding in the muzzle crown? The Effects Of Crown Damage On Accuracy

    Another suggestion is to drop it in the loo.

    You can NOT do your job if you have no confidence in your service piece!

    Good luck.
     
  9. Trooper7687

    Trooper7687 New Member

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    Took apart and checked over the first time it came out before firing, no crown damage, will be shooting the Annual Personal Weapons Test this weekend so will get a few other people to put it through it's paces, I was happier with the last Glock I had, it at least hit where I pointed thats the reason that I don't have it now gotta love the the after action plan of removing the weapon that you used until after the court case and issiuing you a new out of the box Weapon, My boss is on his 5th Glock in three years, still wish's they let him keep the .357 Ruger, wish I'ed got to keep my BHP.:D
     
  10. canebrake

    canebrake New Member

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    Damn, I knew there was a reason I liked you! :p

    [​IMG]
     
  11. Trooper7687

    Trooper7687 New Member

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    Yep Cane , I miss that old gun, far better heft in the hand it was a sad day when we had to give then back all in the name of intergration with other units ( mostly because the police wanted to replace the revolvers they had and bought the Glock so we had to follow suit)

    What about the CZ75, much like the BHP, with a few changes I might see if I can get authorisation to carry one if I buy it myself.:D
     
  12. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    The cz75 is the only 9mm on my list to buy. My opinion and i know its herasy but i think the c75 beats the browning hipower no question. The cz is the only 9mm i find myself renting over and over.

    Just got a xdm in 9mm for my wife 19+1 capacity and its a dream to shoot. I may change my opinion on the one 9mm to get and get one of those
     
  13. bountyhunter

    bountyhunter New Member

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    Bore lasers are cheap, your armorer may have one. That can check for gross errors in bore alignment.

    Hitting high is not surprising since most police defense ammo is hotter than typical standard ammo so recoil lift will raise POI a bit. left right error is just the gun.

    Glock triggers are so abhorrent it is possible that the error is from grip clench, but if you are experienced in shooting Glocks, probably not. It's probably just a crappy gun. Remember, Glock is the duty weapon because it underbid Beretta and all the rest and you get what you pay for.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2011
  14. nccinstaller

    nccinstaller New Member

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    Is it a used gun from the armory or new. It might have gotten beat up from previous use? Just a random thought
     
  15. Trooper7687

    Trooper7687 New Member

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    It was brand new out of the box, took it in and got the sights changed over and when I go back on shift Saturday it'll be stright down the range to see if that helps. At least I still have the firestar for off duty use after the boss said he was happy for me to be using it.

    I'm leaning more and more to the CZ, so will have to get down to the local dealer and see what he has in stock.
     
  16. nccinstaller

    nccinstaller New Member

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    That is weird at least the armory is getting it straightened out for you. Def cant be out in the field with a messed up gun
     
  17. Trooper7687

    Trooper7687 New Member

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    If the Mods don't mind I've started a thread to ask what people think of the CZ as a duty carry wpn, I'ed really like some input, I have included the list that the dept has approved apart from the usual Glock and variants could I ask about the pros and cons. Still leaning towards the CZ as I carried the BHP:D for years and never had the Problems that I've had with the Glock:mad:.
     
  18. JTJ

    JTJ Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It has always been my understanding and experience that faster ammo will shoot low due to less bore time which results in less muzzle rise at the time the bullet exits the barrel.
    I would try a barrel swap with another officer to see if the problem persists. It could be as simple as a bad barrel.
     
  19. bountyhunter

    bountyhunter New Member

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    Depends on loading. If two different bullet grains are loaded to the same final velocity, the heavier slug has a bigger powder charge behind it and creates more recoil. So it BOTH accelerates slower and causes a faster muzzle rise from recoil.


    Of the two factors: recoil and rate of acceleration of the bullet, recoil predominates. Try this test: Get a .357 and shoot two different rounds, one is 158 grain .38 sp and the other is 125 grain .357 magnum ammo. The magnum ammo will hit higher even though the bullet weight is less because it generates a lot more recoil and the muzzle flip is faster to raise the barrel. At least, it does it on my .357 guns.