A nice article to look at for all of you caliber junkies out there.

Discussion in 'Glock Forum' started by g17frantz, Jul 11, 2011.

  1. g17frantz

    g17frantz New Member

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    http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/printable/node/7866
    There are so many articles available on the web about this sort of thing but this guy definitely did his homework. Good hard data for everyone to come up with their own decision what gun to grab when walking out the front door.
     
  2. Thadeuce

    Thadeuce New Member

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    Nice article. Problem with it is there is no control element to determine the efficacy of each round. As he states, more than half the 9mm hits were FMJ instead of JHP. All this tells me is that FMJ is cheaper than JHP thus more people shoot it. It's really cool that he took the time to do that but alas it's really not very useful although very informative.
     

  3. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    1. By his numbers, a .32 auto is more likely to stop an assailant than a .45 ACP. Hmmmmmmmmmmm..........Does the Army know about this? :p

    2. Ammo is cheap. If it was worth shooting, it was worth shooting twice. My standard practice for SD is double tap.

    3. Bullet placement Bullet placement Bullet placement.
     
  4. g17frantz

    g17frantz New Member

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    And I agree with you to a point about the 9mm. Anyone I know who legally carries always uses hp's which is kinda crazy that half of the people carried fmj instead. But given the data it shows you how close of a comparison between the top 4 calibers-.380, 9mm, .40 and .45 on stopping power. That each caliber took at least 2 shots for incapacitation. Thought that was pretty crazy
     
  5. Thadeuce

    Thadeuce New Member

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    Yeah, I thought that was crazy too. However, head hits and torso hits are treated the same and they shouldn't be. How often was someone hit in the head and not incapacitated as opposed to being hit in the torso? Another factor is the size of the person hit. Or how many were on some sort of drug when hit?

    And my comment comparing FMJ and JHP really has more to do with the average person not fully understand the difference in the two rounds. Most non-gun people who shoot a gun every now and then think a bullet is a bullet.

    I wonder how many of these shooters actually carried legally.
     
  6. g17frantz

    g17frantz New Member

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    "I also excluded all cases of accidental shootings or suicides. Every shot in this study took place during a military battle or an altercation with a criminal.'

    That's a quote from the author. I would assume he means military, police and possibly legal carrying citizens. I think ill email the author to get clarification on the matter, I would like to know. And as far as size of person, that's the bad things about articles like this b/c there really are way too many variables. But as far as the other data it seems pretty solid.
     
  7. Thadeuce

    Thadeuce New Member

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    I agree. I'm not knocking his efforts. I applaud them. However, this subject is one that will rage on regardless of the studies done because of the sheer number of variables. WAIT! I got a great idea! We can take all the people on death row and use them to test the stopping power of various rounds. No more tax dollars spent on keeping them on death row and we finally get an answer!
     
  8. g17frantz

    g17frantz New Member

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    Well I just emailed the author to see what he tells me. Yea man I agree with you 100%, studies like this are great but way too many variables. This is really the only one I've read though that had really good hard data to go off of.
    I just get so tired of hearing from the .45 and .40 people that 9mm are for sissies and yada yada yada. Being primarily a 9mm enthusiast, I just want to rub something in their faces to show them the differences aren't great between the 3. And as far as the death row inmates, ill sign the petition.
     
  9. utf59

    utf59 New Member

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    Inclusion of military shootings would explain the high percentage of FMJ rounds used.
     
  10. g17frantz

    g17frantz New Member

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    That makes perfect sense. I don't know why I didn't think about that.
     
  11. Thadeuce

    Thadeuce New Member

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    Well the more I read and study and talk to guys that really know guns, the more I realize that shot placement is king. Even a .22 can kill with one shot. Trooper Mark Coates was hit in the armpit with a .22 that traveled to his heart and killed him.
     
  12. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    i think the most important data from that study is that the avg handgun 30% avg longun 65%

    what it proves is that for home defense use a rifle or shotgun... thats the only relevant data point.
     
  13. InfiniteWalrus

    InfiniteWalrus New Member

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    I enjoyed the article but also think the data is a little lacking.

    I would like to see a study of military shootings that compares the 9mm ball to .45. It would be a larger set of data since both rounds have seen a lot of action.

    One good thing it does show is that there is no miracle round, at least not in a handgun!
     
  14. g17frantz

    g17frantz New Member

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    For sure. You can have a Smith & Wesson .50 revolver and if you can't hit a target 21 ft in front of you what's the point. Shot placement is key but more importantly is how you can handle the stress when faced against a threat. That's why I love the g17. I've got 18 rounds to work with and under stress I'm sure ill miss a couple of times so I'd prefer to have a little extra rounds
     
  15. g17frantz

    g17frantz New Member

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    "Thanks for the kind words and for taking the time to write. I'm glad you found the study useful. To answer your questions...the majority of the shootings were NOT police or military. A lot more armed homeowners than police officers shoot criminals and my study reflected that. And I did not track body size of the person being shot for this study."

    From the author of the article.
    Given this data, if majority of the shootings were more homeowners than military or police, why the hell are more people using fmj vs hp's for home defense? Regardless if they're kids in the home or if in apt building, it just doesn't make sense to me. Is it lack of knowledge or is it the cost of ammo? If more of the shootings involved hp's, im sure the data would be surprising. The avg shots per incapacitation would be lower as well as in increase of fatal shots.
    I AM NOT TRYING TO START A DEBATE ABOUT FMJ VS HP BTW.
    Well there's my .02 on the matter. It was nice of the author to get back so promptly to me.
    Enjoy
     
  16. InfiniteWalrus

    InfiniteWalrus New Member

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    I didn't know there was a debate between FMJ and HP... The only benefit to FMJ is some penetration and cheaper cost. Sure, you can kill someone with FMJ but it is much more of a crap shoot. Imagine if Lautner had used HP... no easy the congresswoman would've survived.
     
  17. alderoth

    alderoth New Member

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    I keep hearing about the G17's. How do you like it? I have a G22 and love how it shoots but wish I had at least 18 rounds instead of 15 lol. You are correct about stress. I am a combat veteran from iraq and stress under fire totally changes the equation when defending yourself.
     
  18. utf59

    utf59 New Member

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    Glad you went the extra step and got a more complete answer from the author. The only reason I can think of now for people using FMJ is ignorance. They must just think bullets are bullets.
     
  19. ArizonaLawman

    ArizonaLawman New Member

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    In the extreme high percentage of the time, if I arrested someone with a gun....it WAS loaded with either ball or a mishmash of whatever would fit (.38 loaded with LRN, ball, one JHP...whatever could be scrounged). Rarely did a scumbag EVER have quality defensive ammo in their gun.

    I used to call it "The Ruger Syndrome"....it seemed like the Ruger P-Series was THE choice in sidearms for southside bangers. This is no indictment of the Ruger...just something I noticed.

    So I agree that MOST casual gun owners or noobs will carry WOlf, White Box, or WHATEVER IS ON SALE as their ammo of choice.