A flaw of the 1911 could be fatal 4 you.

Discussion in 'Semi-Auto Handguns' started by 5shot, Aug 22, 2008.

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  1. 5shot

    5shot Guest

    I am in the process of writing/rewriting an article on the 1911.

    It has been met with severe criticism in some quarters, but that does not change the facts of the matter.

    Here is a link to it: http://www.pointshooting.com/1911.htm

    It deals with CQB situations, not target practice or range shooting.
     
  2. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    Well, having read your article from the link, I can see why it's been met with skepticism... LOL

    I look forward to the rest of the 1911 owners here reviewing the work and giving their opinions. This should be interesting.

    For me - if anyone is advocating using their pointing finger along the slide of any modern handgun, then pulling the trigger with your middle finger, thereby leaving two fingers and a thumb actually holding the grip of the weapon - You are out of your frickin' mind. :eek:

    What do you think guys??

    JD
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2008

  3. BigO01

    BigO01 New Member

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    While this may have been tried as a shooting style after Lt. Col. Baron De Berenger came up with this half baked idea , it was obviously proven to not be the least bit more effective than holding the gun in the traditional manner if even as effective , after all it was tried in 1835 .

    For one thing the mention of dueling pistols being used with this seems highly unlikely , have you ever picked up a dueling Pistol ?

    If you do you will quickly see just how heavy they are and if you get ahold of an older period gun it will be even heavier due to the less refined metal process and thicker barrels .

    This weight would dictate using three fingers on the grip area just to be able to effectively wield the weapon .

    Gun makers have always strived to make their weapons as ergonomical and easy to use as they can , if this had been proved to be an effective shooting style one would think you could find pistols designed with some type of shelf or something to aide in placing a finger along the side of the weapon .

    The name Lt. Col. Baron De Berenger sounds very European and aristocratic to me and God knows what kind of goofy ideas those people came up with .

    My 1911's point just fine using the traditional hold but hey feel free to do whatever floats your boat !!
     
  4. BillM

    BillM Active Member Supporter

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    "And no doubt over the past "100 years" of army and police combat, the 1911 design flaw has resulted in countless injuries to and many deaths of our Armed Forces members and Police. "

    Document just one incident and I will reconsider your current residence in the "Tacti-cool
    Mall Ninja wannabe" file.

    Did you EVER even ONCE consider that if the little bump of slide stop sticking out the
    right side if a 1911 was an issue, SOMEONE in the last 97 years would have specified that it be ground flush?
     
  5. JPBeck

    JPBeck New Member

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    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Entertaining read though!
     
  6. THE_REPUBLICAN

    THE_REPUBLICAN New Member

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    I could not take anything in that article seriously after I read the title- "A FLAW OF THE 1911 COULD BE FATAL 4 YOU". 4 is a number- is it really that much harder to type out for? It is only two more characters, and it adds credibility to the article from the beginning.
     
  7. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    Ah, but the question remains, do you find the "flaw" a reasonable and valid point of contention? ;)

    JD
     
  8. retleo99

    retleo99 New Member

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    Well, I've read the article, and while I'm skeptical, weather permitting, I'm going to head to the range this week with a little over 1000 rounds of freshly loaded .45 ACP(practice) ammo and I'll give your technique an honest try, keeping in mind it's CQB and not my usual target shooting, police technique, rolling on the ground, getting dirty, changing mags, weak/strong hand stuff.

    After I get back, strip & clean my 1911, and shower my bod, I'll let you know what I think.

    Bob
     
  9. Jay

    Jay New Member

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    I"ve been carrying a 1911 style handgun for over 30 years, and I'm NOT an expert anything, but that's one of the most foolish things I've ever heard of.

    If you want to see how accurate you can point, tape a small laser pointer to your trigger finger and point at something while your hand is between chest and waist, then turn the laser on........ surprise !!
     
  10. DFENS

    DFENS New Member

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    I imagined holding my friend's recently-acquired 1911 (.40 cal, some czech company).

    The "traditional" hold reminds me of childhood games of Cops-and-Robbers.

    The "second-finger-on-trigger" hold brings back memories of a few good dates...

    The latter works well on Area 51 and Time Crises, but I'll stick to the old-school Cops-and-Robbers "normal" hold if push ever came to trigger pull.
     
  11. cpttango30

    cpttango30 New Member

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    OMG I must have some piss poor English professors. I could not make it past the 5 paragraph well sentence no maybe it was a paragraph. I am no English professor but I did Get an A in all 5 of my English classes with a recommendation from two different professors that I should minor in English.

    OK one sentence is not a paragraph. A paragraph is a group of sentences that are along the same lines. Each sentence is a separate thought but together all the thoughts are along the same lines. Other than the piss poor use of grammar and/or the serious lack thereof how else do you expect people to take it? It is wrote like a joke so people take it as a joke.

    As far as point shooting. I am not letting my finger contact the slide of my 1911 while firing it. LOL you can if you want, but I will not be doing that. I prefer to have a good grip on the pistol when I fire it. Next your going to be telling us to shoot with out pinkie sticking out to the side like when rich Brits drink the tea. Point shooting is only good for engagements of less than 5' in my eyes.

    No one cares about your opinion in this case. If you are writing a research paper you will be thought a fool when you place this line in your writing. So are you writing a research paper or are you writing a opinion paper? Two different formats, I would suggest that if you want to write a research paper you use either standard MLA or APA Format. Citing sources in a bibliography. These things would make your paper much more formal and would give you at least some creditablility in the eyes of the reader, I would also limit the use of end notes or foot notes as well. I have wrote papers in both formats and they have their place. If you are writing a scientific paper about the use of and tactics of point shooting I would go more for a APA style. If you are going to write a paper on your opinion about how the 1911 is unsuitable for point shooting then I would use the MLA format with no more than 3 sources and quotes per page.

    Hope this helps in your endeavor to become a writer. Oh, and if you didn't know there is only one period at teh end of a sentence. <= like here.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2008
  12. 5shot

    5shot Guest

    Sorry about my English.

    On one hand, I have found it a bit strange that some police and some others in the gun community, write in run-on-and-on-and-on paragraphs.

    And on the other hand, I also have found some to be of a very very sharp mind.

    And then it is also true that some are naturally gifted writers who can out together posts and responses in the blink of an eye, that are better than I ever could hope to put together.

    And some need help in presenting their ideas.

    For me, it's mostly hard work, and mostly uphill.

    I have had several articles on Point Shooting and self defense published in a variety of police publications, so at least some have thought well enough of my ideas and/or English, as poor as it is, to share them/it with their members.

    Best regards,
     
  13. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    I have taught hundreds of cadets, shot thousands of rounds in IPSC and quals. I have shot with Grand Masters and founders of IPSC. The only person I have ever known to shoot a handgun with the index finger extended is a guy that has a damaged index finger that will not bend.

    To say that is a "fatal flaw" of the 1911 design is down right stupid. Just more of the same garbage from the kind of person that can't see the forest for the trees. The kind of person that focuses on one small issue and declares it to be the only issue.

    A fatal flaw of all hammer fired firearms is the gun will be rendered inoperable if the firing pin breaks. Only striker fired guns are safe to carry! Oh, unless the striker breaks. Smith and Wesson auto pistols (and Browning HP's) are unsafe because of the magazine disconnector. If you have to shoot in the middle of a mag change, you will surely die an awful death. Unless you are one of the officers trained to pop your mag out in the event a suspect is trying to take your gun, then he's dead from your backup gun.

    I went to get fitted for my new body armor several years ago and the salesman was quick to declare our new armor choice to be unsafe because we were issuing Spectra Shield armor rather than Kevlar. After all Spectra Shield gives off toxic fumes when it burns. DUH! If my vest is on fire, so am I. Maybe a quick death from toxic inhalation is better than death from burns. People are often afflicted with severe cases of tunnel vision. Step back and see the whole picture!
     
  14. BigO01

    BigO01 New Member

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    Interesting robocop10mm , and while what the guy said was pretty goofy in the context of actually wearing that vest I'm not so sure I would want it .

    The reason is what if an electrical fire started in the closet you hang such a vest in when not wearing it ?

    I don't know about you but I would want to check into the flame retardant rating of something that gave off toxic fumes before it came in my house , a fire while sleeping and that thing catching fire would put you and your family in far more danger than just the fire itself . Toxic fumes could also prevent a firefighter from rescuing people in the home .
     
  15. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    For me, it has absolutely nothing to do with your English, or your presentation. I understand what you are trying to convey, I just believe it's so completely far out in left field that NO ONE who is familiar with the design and operation of a 1911 would consider this "Major Flaw" to even be worth wasting the time to ponder for even a moment.

    If shooting with two fingers on the handle, your thumb, and a finger along the slide of the weapon, the operation of the 1911 would have been designed with one high side, for your index finger, and one low side for the frame itself from the start. Or, it would have been adapted as such in the 100 plus years it's been in service.

    Contrary to opinion you might have heard, John Moses Browning was no dummy. In the firearms world alone, the man is credited with 128 Patents from the US Patent Office. In addition to developing some of the most awesome weapons the world has ever seen, he is also credited with cartridges, either directly or with influence, for weapons that are still in use today. How about: .25ACP? .32ACP? .380ACP? .45ACP?!?! .50BMG?!

    Any of these sound remotely familiar?

    Couple that with the fact that the 1911 has gone through "revisions" at the hands of some of the best pistolsmiths the world has ever known. We are talking about true Master Craftsmen. If there was a fatal flaw to be found, I am pretty sure someone would have mentioned it before the InternetZ came along.

    To sit by, over 100 years later, and pretend that this "Fatal Flaw" has been exposed because no one thought to test the pistol in Point Shooting is completely absurd.

    I will leave you with a comment from Secretary of War, Donald Davis upon hearing of John Browning's death in 1926

    "It is not thought that any other individual has contributed so much to the national security of this country as Mr. Browning in the development of our machine guns and our automatic weapons to a state of military efficiency surpassing that of all nations..."

    Careful when you throw stones into this pond - You don't have the shoes for the repercussions of your actions.

    JD
     
  16. cpttango30

    cpttango30 New Member

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    bravo Dillinger. Good points now if I could just get you back to liking Remington actions. LOL HAHAHAHAHA.....

    I thought most shooting is point shooting. You point the gun at the target and pull the damn trigger it goes bang and if you know what the hell your doing it get a hole of goes ping or it dies.
     
  17. genie

    genie New Member

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    Southpaws?

    What about left-handed shooters? About all they could goof-up is the meat on their finger from the slide-stop gashing against it.

    This is not a comfortable hold on 1911, even for us lefties!
     
  18. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    It's still possible cpt - The Regional Rep for Big Green was by the shop yesterday and left some trinkets for us local boys. Apparently he even left something for little old me. :eek:

    If it's anything worth a damn, or if I can get a shot of that new super action, I will post them tonight when I get home.

    JD
     
  19. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    No photo of the super action. No photo of the new $14K R-n-D Rifle Stock to go on it either. BUT I got to play with it, if anyone is interested. :rolleyes:

    In other news, here is what was left for me, in case I wanted to add it to my new build.

    [​IMG]

    On the last visit, when I was there, the Rep and I talked about my future build. I didn't claim it was a Remy 700, but I did mention it was on a 700 Platform. :eek:

    Truth be told, Lawton isn't the same, but the Rep was nice enough to remember and leave me a new recoil lug that is being marketed.

    [​IMG]

    There is a "theory" that a military sniper "needs" side Picatinny rails to allow them to field both an IR Laser and a "Painting" Device for Long Range Bomb runs. *shrug*

    I am not of the S/S Platoon going deep behind enemy lines, so I can't speak for the snake eating folks. I know that JPBeck deals with them on a regular basis, perhaps he can add some insight.

    Personally, I feel this "add-on" is a completely outrageous, over-priced add on that won't live much of a life in the aftermarket. Once this thing is on & "in place" there is no removing it without first removing the barrel. Something a sniper would prefer never to have done as it will completely mess with his zero and all his field calcs.

    But, that is what is great about America - anyone can be wrong, on any given day.

    Hope you enjoyed the peek behind the scenes to a product that will be out, and available for purchase, to all you good civilians in the near future....

    JD
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2008
  20. 5shot

    5shot Guest

    FYI, I have reworked and updated some info on: "How you can get an automatic and correct Flash Sight Picture + ......"

    And even when you can't see, or don't use the sights.

    As a case in point, on 9/4 I was shooting at aerials (pop cans), and hitting them with a glock airsoft gun that I am not fond of due to its bulky grip.

    It's not that hard.

    The point is that what is said in the article works.

    Could it work for You? Don't see why not.

    Here is the info if you are interested:
    www.pointshooting.com/autofsp.htm
     
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