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Discussion in 'AR-15 Discussion' started by PeteZaHut, Apr 4, 2011.
Which would have more stopping power?
The one that is well placed in the vital organs. 22 lr is VERY deadly IF the shot is placed in the right spot.
ok, what about the bullet in itself, regardless of shot placement
ive got both. inside 200yds definately 458socom is the harder hitting round. 200+ 308
With my eyes, the 458 hands down!
At close range (within 200 yards) depending on the bullet used the 458 will dump most, if not all, of its kinetic energy in the medum its shot into. Kinetic energy pretty much equals out to how much thump the target, say a hungry grizzly, initially feels, any internal and vital organs hit will pretty much be paste when hit with any rifle cartridge.
The 7.62x51 NATO is better for longer distances but has much more penetration than the 458 Socom due to its diameter and usual spitzer style of bullet.
I love the 7.62x51 NATO for its large kinetic energy down range and its wide availability.
The 458 Socom in a small light package like the AR-15 makes a great trail gun, but the availability of the ammo is scarse but slowly growing. Some refer to the 458 Socom as the modern version of the 45-70 Gov't.
The actual ballistics of the two are on opposite ends of the spectrum and can be hard to compare as they are used for different applications.
That depends entirely on bullet construction. There are .30-cal bullets designed to penetrate deep into big game, and there are those designed to fragment within several inches. Most .458 bullets will be designed for very deep penetration for the .45-70, ESPECIALLY the round-nosed bullets that will be used for any military purposes. Those will probably penetrate for days.
Energy itself is kindof meaningless. Relative bullet mass, bullet construction, and velocity are really what's require to make any accurate estimations of terminal performance. Now, with those things you can calculate energy, but again calculating energy won't tell you anything about the type of wound the bullet will likely produce.
With the right bullets for a given job, though, I'd still probably go with the .308.
Depending on the range to target - under 200yds I'll go with AR458. Over 200yds and it's the AR10.
Like you stated energy will tell you what type of wound the bullet will make, the bigger the wound the better the stopping power. I was speaking mainly about typical economical ammo for both calibers. Frangible rounds are fun to mess with but can be costly depending on where you get them and most of the time they are for law enforcement and close range steel shooting, so not typically in high demand.
I agree that all aspects of the cartridge is important to know what the desired effect is going to be. The .7.62x51 NATO has been around for so long in mainstream shooting that there are so many bullet types and loads that you can pretty much get ammo for any situation.
based on what you just said. you dont want the socom. the 458 socom is pretty much a reloader only round. shelf ammo when you canfind it is incredibly expensive. while there is a HUGE range of .458 bullets to choose from that versatility is pretty much limited to reloaders.
Actually I've been lusting after a 458 Socom build as well as a new FAL build but only have the money for one. I plan to reload for which ever I go with, but I'm not sure if the OP is a reloader or not.
i've been contemplating a .458 upper and build or a .44mag lever action for an upcoming hog hunt....
its like i got one lil gun enthusiast birdy on my right shoulder saying "Go with the classic and you can get a relic or even matching pistol down the road!" and the other lil gun loving nut bird on the left tweeting " the Socom is way cooler, wtf kid?"
I'd listen to what that little bird said
Sorry for the confusion, but I actually said the opposite. Energy itself tells absolutely nothing about the type of wound channel a projectile will make. Literally, nothing heh.
A 55gr bullet at 3000fps from an AR15 is about the same energy as a 300gr bullet at 1300fps from a .44 magnum.
The .223 bullet could be solidly-constructed hunting bullet that holds together, expands to maybe .4", and penetrates to about 15" in gel. It could also be a varminting round that fragments significantly and penetrates to maybe 8". In either case its velocity will cause permanent damage well beyond the actual projectile path.
The 300gr .44mag bullet could be a hard-cast that will literally penetrate about 6 feet of flesh. Or, it could be one of the well-expanding rounds that will expand nicely and penetrate about 3' of flesh. In either case, its low velocity means the only permanent damage will be what the bullet itself physically touched along its path.
So again, the only way to formulate an accurate estimation of wound potential is to know velocity, mass, and bullet construction (which is related to caliber). With those, energy can be calculated, but the energy itself doesn't tell you anything.
Think of it like walking into a Dodge dealership and choosing which vehicle will be fastest around a racetrack based ONLY on horsepower. You might end up leaving with a 500hp Diesel-power Ram that weighs 9000lbs, when the 2500lb Neon SRT-4 with 240hp would run circles around it. Just the same, if you are looking for the vehicle to tow a boat, you might leave with a trade-on C6 Corvette with 600hp, when in this case a big truck would have been way better. Horsepower itself, just like bullet energy, doesn't tell you anything about how a specific car (or cartridge load) will perform a specific task.
And it doesn't take specifically-frangible bullets to fragment or expand significantly. There are lots of light-for-caliber (90-110gr) .308 varmint bullets that will do this when pushed to proprtional velocities (say, 3200-3300fps).
Of course, to be fair we must admit that the Socom is a cartridge designed to fit in the AR15 platform, whereas the. 308 does not have this limitation. So, while I would still take the. 308 as a general purpose round for a semi auto, the Socom does have an arguable edge in CQB over other cartridges that can fit in the AR platform, especially with better bullets than ball ammo.
And between the. 44mag and the Socom for a fun gun, id definitely go with the .458! And this is coming from someone who loves his. 44, heh.
I read your post wrong Lindenwood, sorry about that.
After some thinking about it and looking back on the kinetic energy formula, we are technically saying the same thing just in different terms. You simply broke it down more than I did.
I dont quite think comparing these two cartridges is fair since the effective range of the Socom is limited and only available on the AR plateform so far. The 7.62x51 NATO isnt limited by either. Both were made for different reasons on top of all of that.
Perhaps if we had parameters to go by then we could provide a more concise answer to the question. Overall comparison is hardly ever fair and always caused tensions amungst different schools of thought and likes.
Yeah, comparing the cartridges directly, especially without restrictions on ammo choice, isn't quite fair. However, deciding whether to buy an AR15 in the .458 chambering, vs an Ar10, is a valid question.
And I'd definitely say Ar10 > .458 AR15 > .44mag lever-action (as a fun gun) .
Why decide on either when you can have both?
I wouldnt mind having one of each personally
I'm more of a battle rifle guy and have been drooling over the REPR from LWRC. I like that ArmaLite has the original tooling and all that for the AR-10 but the REPR has a feel of a FAL fused with an AR-10 accuracy and modularity. At $3.5K I'm saving my pennies.
Is having a semi-auto that shoots .458 (or .50 beowulf even) practical? Can you get of quick follow shots with that kind of firepower?
How would that aspect of it compare to a 308?