380 ACP through biker leather jacket

Discussion in 'Semi-Auto Handguns' started by Marthor, Sep 18, 2011.

  1. Marthor

    Marthor New Member

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    LCP 380 is my primary most carried weapon, but I want to, ney, I need to know what it can really do.

    I've been looking all over youtube and searching google, but can't find any definitive test on shooting through leather.

    A biker's thick leather jacket is a common enough item to possibly encounter. Will it stop a 380 enough to seriously reduce the effectiveness.

    I've found quite a number of test videos...
    1) through a slab of ribs and then into gel. Went through the ribs and then 6" into the gel (result = effective)
    2) through 4 layers of denim and then into gel. On one test, the denim clogged the hollow point so it didn't expand. The clogged bullet acted like a regular flat nose FMJ and actually penetrated further because it didn't expand (result either way = effective)
    3) through a light leather jacket into a water jug. This one didn't tell me anything other than a light leather jacket does nothing. I like the gel tests better because you get a more precise measurable result. (through a light leather jacket = effective)

    Fine, plenty of videos showing the 380 as effective, but still doesn't answer my question.

    Here's the test I want to see:
    Thick leather jacket, then cotton sweatshirt, then slab of ribs, then gel.
    I'm left guessing on whether the 380 would be effective through that. I'm sure it would go into the ribs, but if the ribs stop it, I would declare it uneffective.

    Another must do test is a nice very think winter coat, then a sweatshirt, then some long-johns, then a slab of ribs, then gel.
    Would it be effective into that or stop at the ribs? I don't know.

    I'm left to guess if there are some situations where 380, even well placed into the chest could be uneffective because of common wear items. None of the tests I've found are adequate to answer for sure.

    For now, it's LCP in the summer and LCR in the winter. I'd like know when for sure the LCP can be counted on though.
     
  2. trip286

    trip286 New Member

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    this is the way testing should be done in my opinion. let us know if you find what your looking for.
     

  3. BigByrd47119

    BigByrd47119 New Member

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    That would be a very interesting test. To be totally honest however, I think it would be a real strain on the little .380. What specific round are you looking for? A real problem I have encountered is issues related to barrel length. Even a half inch of barrel length could be the difference between good penetration and expansion or failure to expand.

    A lot of good .45 ammo wont expand when shot through the Bersa Thunder UC45, but will with a compact Glock (difference of less than an inch in barrel length). So far, Speer Gold Dot has been a great performer is 3.5" barrels with reliable expansion.
     
  4. Lindenwood

    Lindenwood New Member

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    Your concern is why I'd never load anything but heavy-for-caliber non-expanding ammo (preferrably some type of flat-point). The caliber is already so strained to have bullets both reliably expand and reliably penetrate, I wouldn't want to count on it still doing both after penetrating any number of relatively common obstacles (like leather jackets).
     
  5. bigtiller

    bigtiller New Member

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    A test like that would be great reading!

    But my first thought was why are you spending so much time in a biker bar? :)

    my attempt at humor
     
  6. donthav1

    donthav1 Active Member

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    usually around here the biker clubs won't start trouble unless they seriously outnumber someone......so you're also gonna need alot more mags :D
     
  7. fisher79

    fisher79 New Member

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    If it don't go through the jacket aim for the balls;)
     
  8. roscoguy

    roscoguy New Member

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    Alternate test procedure:

    1 - Drive to biker bar.
    2 - Back your truck over several bikes. (leave it running)
    3 - Step out w/LCP in dominant hand.
    4 - Aim for rapidly approaching leather jackets.
    5 - Fire 1 round per test subject.
    6 - Re-enter truck & drive to somewhere safe with internet access.
    7 - Report findings here.

    Suggested preparation: keep Bushmaster and/or Mini readily accessible during steps 3-6.

    :D
     
  9. ninjatoth

    ninjatoth New Member

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    The Hornady Critical Defense was made specifically to punch through material and still expand without clogging,I'd like to see how it does through leather.Ha ha,my buddy and I used to joke about smaller calibers and leather,for instance the .25acp,we'd joke it might do ok unless they were wearing a leather coat.
     
  10. BigByrd47119

    BigByrd47119 New Member

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    Only problem with HCD is related directly to barrel length. Its VERY unreliable out of sub-3" barrels with regard to expansion.
     
  11. Snakedriver

    Snakedriver New Member

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    I know some people think .380 acp is some lame round that can barely punch a hole through paper, but that's from people who have only shot paper. Shoot some things like wood 2-by's sometime with your .380 and you'll realize it has a lot more punch than you may think.

    For the record, a .380 will punch a hole through a leather jacket like a hot knife through butter.
     
  12. PanBaccha

    PanBaccha New Member

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    Now that is scientifically funny! :D
     
  13. IGETEVEN

    IGETEVEN New Member

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    Well unless he has that jacket stretched up over his head and down to his ankles, I don't think you would have a problem shooting him anywhere else. .380 Ballistics are similar to a 9mm. I think you worry needlessly.

    There are more than 3 rounds in an average .380 mag. Shoot until the threat is stopped, insert mag and repeat as needed. :cool:
     
  14. trip286

    trip286 New Member

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    This is a very good policy. Don't shoot to kill, don't shoot to wound, but DO shoot to stop the threat. I still want to see the results of such a proposed test though. My sister would be interested too, she just recently joined the handgunning world with a Kel-Tec .380. She's an accountant, and just started her own business, but didn't realize the office space she rented was a little too close to the bad side of town for her comfort.
     
  15. IGETEVEN

    IGETEVEN New Member

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    Nice testing intel here on the .380 round in comparison to the 9mm. Again YMMV. :cool:

    » You really don’t need a pocket 9mm Gun Nuts Media
     

    Attached Files:

  16. Lindenwood

    Lindenwood New Member

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    Now let's not get carried away... :rolleyes:


    Exactly!

    I also agree with those who point out that a big problem is the short barrel length. An 80gr bullet at like 750fps isn't going to reliably expand. So, I'd prefer to load heavy and non-expanding so I know exactly what the bullet is going to do, every time.
     
  17. IGETEVEN

    IGETEVEN New Member

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    LOL, you get shot with both rounds...and then tell me that. :rolleyes:
     
  18. Lindenwood

    Lindenwood New Member

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    How does that prove anything? I wouldn't let you slap me either, but that doesn't mean open palms make good defensive weapons.

    Yeah, out of pocket pistols the 9mm is pretty significantly hindered, but there is still a pretty significant difference in wounding capacity. The higher-end .380s on GoldenLoki show about 13-14" of penetration and about .45" of expansion. The best 9mm load they tested (124gr Golden Saber), however, shows 15" of penetration and .62" of expansion, with the average of the other loads being closer to .55" with 15" or so of penetration.
    GoldenLoki.com

    Thus, the 9mm is capable of creating over 50% wound volume at minimum, or about twice the wound volume with the best loads, all with deeper penetration (further eliminating any concern with leather jackets and what-not). Again, this is still comparing 9mm out of a 3" barrel.


    Now, I almost exclusively carry and shoot full-sized guns, so it's largely a moot point for me. But, it is inaccurate and irresponsible to say the .380 and 9mm are "similar" relative to other calibers. 9mm is MUCH closer to .40 and .45 in typical wound volume than it is to .380.
     
  19. IGETEVEN

    IGETEVEN New Member

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    So with the ballistics data you presented, on not only the .380 and 9mm, you also presented the .40 comparison and the .45 as well, and basically I am seeing your implying that a .380 won't kill one "as dead" as a 9mm? Even with good shot placement? :confused:

    But it will just kill?


    sim·i·lar Adjective/ˈsimələr/
    1. Having a resemblance in appearance, character, or quantity, without being identical.
    2. (of figures) Having the same shape, with the same angles and proportions, though of different sizes.
    Wikipedia - Dictionary.com - Answers.com - Merriam-Webster
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2011
  20. Lindenwood

    Lindenwood New Member

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    In that context, all common defensive calibers (from .32 to .45) are "similar" in their wounding capacities. What's your point, then?




    I wouldn't disagree that service calibers (9 to .45) are very similar, but .380 is not on the same level of wound capacity or consistency.