.357 mag and 10mm gelatin tests

Discussion in 'Ammunition & Reloading' started by TylerDurden, Jun 22, 2013.

  1. TylerDurden

    TylerDurden New Member

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    [ame="http://youtu.be/dy9tIABsauM"].357 test video[/ame]


    Underwood .357 158 gr Hex plated fired from 4" S&W Model 13 through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.

    BB calibration: 585.0 fps, 3.1"

    Impact velocity: (err)
    Penetration: 27.5"
    Retained weight: 157.7 gr
    Expansion: None

    A few notes on this one. It was overcast, making it difficult to get a good velocity reading. Underwood advertises 1,475 fps for this load and their claimed velocity is usually very close to actual. One shot curved and left the block on the bottom, the other came very close to exiting the block on the top. I cannot say for sure whether there was expansion on the shot that exited but based on the dramatically larger stretch cavity, I think it is likely. Nevertheless, this bullet is at least capable of failing to expand. Recoil was mild for a .357 mag.




    [ame="http://youtu.be/3KbLafCnrH0"]10mm test video[/ame]


    10mm Atomic 180 gr Hex plated fired from 4.5" bbl EAA Witness through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.

    BB calibration: 585.0, 3.1"

    Impact velocity: 1,251 fps
    Penetration: greater than 17.7"
    Retained weight: N/A
    Expansion: N/A

    Both shots experienced significant fragmentation and deviated, exiting the side of the block.
     
  2. Jagermeister

    Jagermeister New Member

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    Thank you for the videos. The results are very interesting. Still, I doubt the two and four legged animals my ammo is designed for are made of gelatin though.:D I do trust the tests on pig carcasses. They are more scientific. Plus gelatin is totally different then fat, muscle and bone. Here is an interesting read.....

    http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal Ballistics as viewed in a morgue.htm
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2013

  3. TylerDurden

    TylerDurden New Member

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    This is a commonly held misconception. Properly calibrated gelatin actually IS remarkably consistent with human and porcine tissue.


    "The IWBA published some of Gene Wolberg’s material from his study of San Diego PD officer involved
    shootings that compared bullet performance in calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin with the autopsy
    results using the same ammunition. When I last spoke with Mr. Wolberg in May of 2000, he had
    collected data on nearly 150 OIS incidents which showed the majority of the 9mm 147 gr bullets
    fired by officers had penetrated 13 to 15 inches and expanded between 0.60 to 0.62 inches in both
    human tissue and 10% ordnance gelatin. Several other agencies with strong, scientifically based
    ammunition terminal performance testing programs have conducted similar reviews of their shooting
    incidents with much the same results--there is an extremely strong correlation between properly
    conducted and interpreted 10% ordnance gelatin laboratory studies and the physiological effects of
    projectiles in actual shooting incidents." - Dr. Roberts



    "The test of the wound profiles validity is how accurately they portray the projectile-tissue
    interaction observed in shots that penetrate the human body. Since most shots in the human body
    traverse various tissues, we would expect the wound profiles to vary somewhat, depending on the
    tissues traversed. However, the only radical departure has been found to occur when the
    projectile strikes bone: this predictably deforms the bullet more than soft tissue, reducing its
    overall penetration depth, and sometimes altering the angle of the projectile's course. Shots
    traversing only soft tissues in humans have shown damage patterns of remarkably close
    approximation to the wound profiles.

    The bullet penetration depth comparison, as well as the similarity in bullet deformation and yaw
    patterns, between human soft tissue and 10% ordnance gelatin have proven to be consistent and
    reliable. Every time there appeared to be an inconsistency a good reason was found and when the
    exact circumstances were matched, the results matched. The cases reported here comprise but a
    small fraction of the documented comparisons which have established 10% ordnance gelatin as a
    valid tissue simulant." - Dr. Fackler


    That said, my own tests are less than scientific and shouldn't be taken as conclusive on their own.
     
  4. JimRau

    JimRau Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Thank you! This is the same results I got. That is why you do not want a 158 gr bullet for SD in a 357 Mag. The 125 GR JHP is the way to go.:)
     
  5. John_Deer

    John_Deer New Member

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    It's a nice test. But it really doesn't prove that much. Who uses FMJ ammo for SD in anything larger than a 9mm? I don't even buy 357 mag FMJ ammo for target practice. 357 mag SP ammo is usually pretty close to the same price as FMJ.
     
  6. Anna_Purna

    Anna_Purna New Member

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    And the bone???? ;)
     
  7. Doc3402

    Doc3402 New Member

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    Good point. The fact of the matter is that ballistic gel is great for advertising purposes to compare one round to another, but it is next to worthless for predicting how a round will act on a human.

    I have seen cold ones with multiple GSWs from the same box of ammo fired through the same gun that varied in penetration by at least a female's 6 inches.

    I have seen rounds blow right through the chest and other rounds in the same person from the same box through the same gun not even penetrate the skin of a beer gut.

    I've seen rounds follow a rib all the way around and exit through the skin at the back.

    All of these things are impossible to predict with gel. If the author had said "soft tissue" I might come closer to believing it, but as it's written, it's bunk.
     
  8. John_Deer

    John_Deer New Member

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    That must be an old test. I checked underwoods site to find that round. They don't even list it any longer. This is a real world test. I shot a deer in the chest with a 125 gr Fiocchi SP round. The bullet exited wight in front of the deer's hip. The Fiocchi SP penetrated around 34" of deer. The deer was about 15 yards from me when I took the shot. When I field dressed the deer it's lungs were trashed. The deer's diaphragm was split where the bullet passed through it. I used a Ruger Blackhawk with a 6.5" barrel to take the deer.
     
  9. hardluk1

    hardluk1 Active Member

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    Is the term " HEX Plated" bullet reference to the a Rainer hex bullet? Not the normal speer or hornady jacked and bonded bullets underwood use's. Never looked at the rainer bullets as quality defence bullet. More for match use.
     
  10. TylerDurden

    TylerDurden New Member

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    Sorry it took a while to get back over here, guys.

    Bone introduces a lot of other problems. Professional labs will sometimes include bone in a battery of tests but it takes a very large sample size to get any useful information. It's nearly impossible to predict with any accuracy what will happen when a bullet strikes bone. It is definitely outside the scope of my testing.
     
  11. TylerDurden

    TylerDurden New Member

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    I didn't write that. Those quotes are from Docters Fackler and Roberts. I'm not qualified to draw any conclusions. From your claim about ammo blowing through a chest and not penetrating the skin, it's fairly clear you're lying or delusional. It is true that projectiles can do odd things and intermediate barriers or bone can significantly complicate things but you just stated several mythical cliches of the hillbilly gun counter in one post.
     
  12. TylerDurden

    TylerDurden New Member

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    It is a Rainier bullet. Not an old test but a discontinued loading from Underwood. I figure it's still useful, though, because the bullets are available and the velocity is consistent with what a hand loader might load to.
     
  13. TylerDurden

    TylerDurden New Member

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    That's probably a good way to look at it. Because they're a JHP and are scored, some people might believe them to be suitable for hunting or defense. They clearly aren't, at least at that velocity. Might be a different story out of a 16" barrel.
     
  14. Doc3402

    Doc3402 New Member

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    Actually, I am neither lying or delusional, just very experienced in treating GSW patients. I have seen things that to this day I don't believe, but they happen.

    The patient in question was a 225 pound COPD and CHF patient suffering from acute alcoholism. The first round went right through the chest without hitting bone. The second round missed him completely, and the third did not penetrate his abdomen. He was shot with a 9mm S&W mod 39. From his condition are you getting a clue as to why it happened?
     
  15. Overkill0084

    Overkill0084 Active Member

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  16. bluez

    bluez Well-Known Member

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    I respectfully,
    disagree Sir,

    The way In figure it the performance of .357 magnum is so good, the lack of a hollow point in a FMJ is not a significant operational detriment.

    But it DOES usefully expand the envelope shooting into vehicles and folks behind light cover such as vests.

    For example S&B makes many different .357 Mag loads, including 2 or 3 158 gr.

    one of them is 158 GR FMJ at 1400 fps thats as fast in a 158gr as the typical quality 125 gr (!), so its a real hot load with over 600lbs ft of energy .

    Thats twice that of a 9 mil and almost as much as some 44 Mag.

    BUT unlike the typical 44 Mags its bi-metal FMJ so you can imagine the penetration thru some light cover (steel doors, vests etc) to be even a greater than some 44 Mag loads as those are presumed by the tester to be either HP or SP.

    All the while its speed and size assures good on target effect as well.
     
  17. TylerDurden

    TylerDurden New Member

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    That's a dramatically different story. Not completely penetrating is a world away from "...not even penetrate the skin of a beer gut."
     
  18. Doc3402

    Doc3402 New Member

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    Let's see. We have:

    and

    Looks like the same thing to me, but that may be the medical training coming through. Abdomen is an anatomical area of the body. Abdominal cavity is the part with the organs in it. It's just like the thorax. That would be the area between the neck and the abdomen. The thoracic cavity contains the organs.

    Let me put it this way and hopefully eliminate all questions. He was hit about 2 inches above and to his right of his navel. There was a large red spot, but not a single drop of blood at the injury site.

    By the way, if you're going to quote me, please try to be accurate. The word "completely" was not in the sentence you attribute to me.
     
  19. TylerDurden

    TylerDurden New Member

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    I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, thinking that you might have been imprecise or exaggerating. It is now very clear that you are lying, unless there is some other important detail you're leaving out like body armor or other intermediate obstacle.