308 suggestions for long range shooting?

Discussion in 'General Rifle Discussion' started by joedog1991, Dec 6, 2009.

  1. joedog1991

    joedog1991 New Member

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    Hey everyone. I've been wanting to get into long range target shooting and maybe competitions for a while, and now finally have the cash to do so. I've decided on a 308 bolt or semi, most likely a bolt though?(Unless someone tells me there is a better fit for what I want. I'm open to new opinions. I don't want to go to big in caliber though because I hunt deer and would prefer not to blow them up---) My price range is around 1000-1500. 1000 preferably, but I also want a gun that will do better than I ever will, and if that means spending a few Hundred on it then thats cool.

    What is a good twist for 308?

    So far what I've looked at:
    -Remington Model 700
    -Thompson Center Icon
    -Kimber Model 84

    (If I go with semi It would Benelli or Browning)
     
  2. mrm14

    mrm14 Active Member

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    Well alot of the guys where I shoot are using between 155 to 175 grain bullets in their.308 Win. custom loads for long range target. 1 in 10 twist seems to be common for these guys, however, some are using 1 in 11 twist for their .308 Winchester caliber rifles which seem to work fine for them as well.

    Bolt rifle is the only way to go for this application. Some guys use semi autos for out 550 yard steel matches. I've seen no one yet use other than a bolt gun for any further than 550 yards.

    As far as your budget you stated, your going to find yourself a little more than on the lean side of what it usually costs to get into this long range shooting. the scopes alone cost on average of +/- $2000.00 for these guys that compete. The scope for my current 1000 yard project will cost +/- $3000.00.

    The .308 Win./7.62 NATO will fit the F-Class Target Rifle (F-TR). In (F-TR) The rifle is restricted to the chambers of unmodified .308 Win./7.62 NATO or unmodified .223 Remington/5.56 X 45 NATO cartridge cases and is a more common class in NRA matches.

    There is also F-Class Open Rifle (F-O) which the rifle is restricted to a bore diameter no larger than .35 caliber. This is a much more spendy class to compete in, especiqlly for a beginner and is not as common event as the (F-TR) class in NRA competition.

    I suggest that you contact the local long range shooting club (s) at the range (s) you go to and talk to them. They are usually more than eager to help with info for newbs and most will actually invite you out to watch them shoot and check out their rigs. This IMO is a good place to start if you want to get into this.
     

  3. jpattersonnh

    jpattersonnh Active Member

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    It seems you want a dual roll rifle. Tell us what distance for target, and what type of hunting, ie. still or tracking.
     
  4. dunerunner

    dunerunner New Member

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    Sounds like what I did. Bought a Savage Model 10LCP in .308. Cabela's under $700 Nikon Optics $550

    [​IMG]
     
  5. joedog1991

    joedog1991 New Member

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    Wow, price!

    For the most part, I'm not sure if I would ever compete. Especially with the price of the scope u just listed. or at least not any time soon. But I do need a rifle to hunt with, and I'm not big on having to buy stuff twice. do you thank I could Find a gun in my price rang that If I ever decided to compete. It would be able to do so. Or would I need to dig deep. and if so how much would I have to spend on an 800-1000 ish yard.. gun? Are any of the guns I've looked at capable of this?

    (if I won't be able to find a rifle even close to the price rang that will shoot the yards I want what would be my best bet for 500-600 yard gun that way I can get used to shooting ect. and maybe in a few years I could "upgrade". This isn't my first choice though. only if it way out of budget to find a gun in the ranges.) What guns are out there at what prices at what ranges?


    -and thanks for your advice and all, I may go and do that.
     
  6. joedog1991

    joedog1991 New Member

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    Mostly I'd be shooting between 10-200 yards (at deer) mostly still hunts from a stand, sometimes deer drives, but I mostly use a shotgun for that. For the fun of it I would like to be able to shoot between 500-1000 yards. I know thats a huge range. I would like to shoot to 1000, But reality is that I probably don't have the cash for that. especially at this time.
    so what is my best bet? With the guns I've listed and others at there price range how far could I shoot?



    Dunerunner, how far can you accurately shoot your rifle?


    Thanks,
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2009
  7. mrm14

    mrm14 Active Member

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    Dunerunners option would be a good way to start. You could work your skills out to 500 to 600 yards over time and upgrade the rifle you buy now later. Where I shoot alot of newbs do this exact same thing.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2009
  8. jpattersonnh

    jpattersonnh Active Member

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    1000 yards is a long distance. I would recommend a .300 Win Mag. A .308 can do it, but the bullet drop is huge! 96.4" w/ 200 yard zero at 600 yards w/ 168gr match bullet. Toss in a mild 5mph wind at a 30 degree angle and drift in 9.5".
    If you ever look at older Sniper scopes, they were set up in 100 meter increments. This is a 1937 German Ajack. The numbers are hard to see in the pic.
    [​IMG]

    This is a 1986 Hensoldt Z24
    [​IMG]

    They are built for simplicity and accuracy.
     
  9. dunerunner

    dunerunner New Member

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    As far as the damned bullet will fly!! I'm working on hitting paper with it at that range though!! :D

    "The US Army preaches an 800 meter maximum effective range for the .308, the USMC preaches a 1000 yard (915 meter) max effective range." From 308 Winchester for Sniping
     
  10. Shooter girl

    Shooter girl New Member

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    Remember one thing. When the various branches figure up the max effect ranges they are talking the max range at which the properly trained and average shooter can hit the target.

    Max effective for the SASR is 1800 meters. But there have been kills made at much longer ranges.
     
  11. mrm14

    mrm14 Active Member

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    I go with what the Army says. Most .308 Win will go sub sonic just at about 900 yards. 800 meters is about 875 yards. The guys/gals that shoot .308 Win. develop their own loads to ramp up the velocity of the bullet to stay super sonic to at 1000 yards or a tad beyond to keep the bullet from going sub sonic or what is usually called Trans Sonic for a 1000 yard target.

    When a object in flight passes through the sound barrier, either sub sonic, such as in a supersonic jet, to super sonic, and visa versa, or a bullet from super sonic to sub sonic the pressure wave during of this trans sonic event moves over the object in flight and imparts "wobble" or "shaking" for lack of better words, to this object. An example would be back when they were pushing to break the sound barrier with the X-1 Rocket plane. There were several attempts made before they actually succeded breaking the sound barrier with this plane and when Chuck Yeager finally did it the damn thing shook like hell when it transitioned subsonic to supersonic speed as well as when it transitioned from supersonic to subsonic speed.
     
  12. Dillinger

    Dillinger New Member

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    I hate these threads. :mad:

    Look at my signature. You see that rifle. That is a custom built .308

    That was designed and built for me, with input by my gunsmith.

    I know what that weapon WILL and what it WILL NOT do.

    Shooting at a 1,000 yards, regardless of what Hollywood would have you believe, is a god damn MOON SHOT. We are talking SERIOUS up arc to counter act the effects of gravity on a round that is NOT EFFECTIVE at 1,000 yards.

    Yes. It can hit a target at that range with EXTREME training.

    Yes, it CAN hit a target at that range with a lot of work.

    Yes, it CAN kill something if you factor in some of the above and some luck.

    But ideally?!?!?

    This round is not even CLOSE to being a 1,000 yard cartridge.

    The effective range of a round like is this 600-650 yards according to one of the true masters of the craft, Major John Plaster.

    You need to be thinking about something with more power and more velocity. Something along the lines of a .300 Win mag or maybe a 6.5x284mm if you want a wildcat with less recoil and you are willing to reload.....
     
  13. mrm14

    mrm14 Active Member

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    I also agree with Dillinger here. It can be done with alot of training and practice,but for the most part, at 1000 yards, your POI is not going to be in the "X" ring (5"). Some who have been doing this for awhile with rigorus training will be somewhere between the 10 ring (10") and 9 ring (20"). The rest will be lucky to get into the 8 ring (30").

    Also, most of the local matches here where .308 Win. caliber is used is either the F-Class Mid-Range Prone with 45 shots; 15 rounds at 300 yards, 15 rounds at 500 yards, and 15 rounds at 600 yards, or, F-Class Palma with 45 shots; 15 rounds at 800 yards, 15 rounds at 900 yards, and 15 at 1000 yards.

    The most of the time this club shoots F-Class regional course which is 120 shots. They are 2 day events. Day one is 600 yards and day 2 is 1000 yards. .308 Win. is not used for 1000 yards. .308 Win. can be used for the Day 1 600 yard as you can change rifles between stages of multiple stage matches. However, most here use F-O Class rifles which are usually chambered in 243 Win., 6.5 mm, .300 Win. Mag., or .338 Lapua and stick with the same rifle for the entire 2 day event.

    BTW my 1000 yard target build is in .300 Win. Mag.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2009
  14. joedog1991

    joedog1991 New Member

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    Thanks for all of yalls input. it has been very insightful.
    I have one more question. ----what gun should I get?
    I'm stuck on 308, and whatever range it is capable of. weather it is 20ft. to 3 miles.
    Whatever rang the 308 is capable of what gun will be able to shoot it to its proper justification. What gun will be able to handle it, if I ever decide to load them hot.
    I know no gun will be junk.(308)
    But I could go to academy right now and buy a buy a remington 770 for 340$ or I could buy the remington model 700 sps for about 600$
    same brand and both 308, but one should produce better accuracy over the other, right? (thats just a ex.)
     
  15. mrm14

    mrm14 Active Member

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    Theres nothing wrong with that Savage Model 10 Dunerunner suggested. Matter of fact, IMO, out of the box it's better quality than a Remington. Remington 700 would be less money and I dont know much about the Remington Model 770 other is is a packaged deal (which I personally dont usually like packaged deals) and I believe it is based on the Model 710 which is said to be an economy version of the 700.
     
  16. jpattersonnh

    jpattersonnh Active Member

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    If you are on a budget, you should buy a gun that can be modified in the future. The Savage would be the simplest, a 700 or Howa 1500 would be next. I bought a 1500 HB .308 many years ago. It shoots surplus 7.62x51 just as well as .308 commercail rounds. I settled on 2 165gr bullet types for hunting and 168gr match for punching paper (reloads). The scope has changed from a 6-24x40mmAO to a 4-12x42mmAO as it is more practical for hunting. Cheap glass will effect accuracy and make distance more difficult. Lens clarity and light gathering is very important. Don't fixate on long range. Take your time and learn proper technique and your limitations. Another important tool is a good bi-pod if you are hunting w/ a heavy barrel. Cheaper ones are just that and really suck.
    You also better save up for ammo. Reloading is truely the way to go.
     
  17. dteed4094

    dteed4094 New Member

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    1000 yards?

    Dreaming big is admirable, Realizing that dream is miraculous. Usually this accomplishment requires an extreme amount of dedication, followed with patients, physical ability, knowledge, an enormus amount of practice and, yes, $$$. Shooting 1000 yds with an out of the box rifle is like trying to win the Ididarod with a tobogan. Myself, shooting 1/2 moa at 100 yds. consistantly is my goal. I have done this on a very few occasions but Luck had a lot to do with it and the gun did the rest. If I were to try 1000 yds, I would want a very large target and considerable amount of luck. I shoot at least once a week and have been shooting since I was 10 yrs. old, I'm 62 now, but have come to realize the bullseye is my second point of aim and enjoyment my first.
    I admire anyone that has the ability,dedication,and knowledge to achieve 1000 yds shots with any amount of success.
    Get a very good 22 and try to shoot 1 moa at 100 yds. It's quite a bit cheaper and a good starting point. When you've mastered that, if you still have the determination and about $10,000 spare. Give it a try.
    Don't be discouraged by what I've said here. Realize that starting 1000 yds is like trying to run a 100 meters in one step.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2009
  18. Shooter girl

    Shooter girl New Member

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    Please note that a bullet breaks the sound barrier while it is still inside the barrel of the rifle.

    I don't think that the same thing happens when you go from super sonic to sub sonic. The pressure wave happens because the object is accelerating faster than the air around it can. So why would there be another pressure wave when something drops below super sonic speeds?
     
  19. joedog1991

    joedog1991 New Member

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    mrm14-


    dteed4094-
    I know its not like I can just get up and go shoot 1k yards.
    And I know a 308 isn't a practical round for that range. but thats not what I asked, to shoot a 1k shot. Yes , I would like to, one day. after much time and effort. but right now I want a 308. gun that will shoot a 308 to to whatever range a 308 can be shot to. I don't even know if I ever will get that into it. I might and I might not. So, what GUN in 308 caliber if I ever do need to hit something "far off" will do it. and will be able to be customized and upgraded to the maximum efficiency of a 308 bullet.
    Heres an example of what I mean. (lets pretend I've been in the military for 25 yr. and am one of there top snipers. I am taking a 400 yard(decent range for 308 if I know what I am doing) shot at a 50 cent piece. even though I am a great shot if I don't have good equipment then it will make the shot impossible. if I am using a cheap 120 off the shelf 308 or am using a 1200 dollar whatever the shot would be much easier with the better gun cuz the better gun will have a better trigger capable of being smithed into how I want it. and the better gun will have a better scope mounting system and Probable have some sort of glass bedding or something to that affect. Those things shood make my gun better right? otherwise all of the ppl who do shoot there 1k shots could go buy the cheapest 338 they could find and attach a 3000 scope and be set to go. ---or Haven't they "upgraded" there guns to fit them?


    ---------
    dteed4094, the 22 advice is the best non 308 related I've got so far and is actually what I am planing on doing.
    but I do need a rifle to hunt with and I don't think 22 rimfire will cut it and I would prefer to only have to buy one 308 that with some upgrades latter on could shoot a 308 bullet to the maximum rang it is capable of being shot accurately.



    Thanks all of yall, It's cool to learn from all yall smart people
     
  20. cpttango30

    cpttango30 New Member

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    There are 2 basic types of shooting done at 1000 yards right now. Palma and F-class. Palma is crazy they use CUSTOM built guns with 32 or 34" barrels running over max loads in them gun to keep the tinly little 155gr pill super sonic out to 1k. Oh yah they shoot it with peep sights as well. But one guy didn't want to stop shooting Palma but his eyes said Your not doing it with peep sights. From that grew F-class shooting 800 900 and 1000 yard targets shot with many different rifle and cartridge combos. From the 22-6mm AI to the 300 AI (300 weatherby blown out to AI dimensions) Most rifles on the line are custom builds of some kind.

    The F-tr is a starter class where you can only use 308 win rifle. Savage makes a very good F-tr gun. I believe it to be the best out there for a stock rifle. It will shoot rings around any of the three you listed. That gun lists for $1000 then you need optics. Dude no dam 3-9x40 will cut it on the 1000 yard line. We are looking at spending at least $1500 on just the scope. With Leupold and Nightforce being at the BOTTOM end of the spectrum. My 1k will wear a S&B scope.

    You are going to want to use at least 175gr Sierra Match King's if not 180 or 190gr. Then you are going to need a reloading set up and your going to need a range that you have access to.

    I am lucky as I live next door to Quantico MCB and they have a 1k range that is open one a month to the shooting club.

    First things first you need to find a place to shoot that far or even 500 to 700 yards. Many places just don't have that kind of range.

    A hunting rifle is not a 1k rifle and a 1k rifle is not a hunting rifle.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2009