.22lr precision shooting...questions

Discussion in '.22 Rifle/Rimfire Discussion' started by icallshotgun88, Jun 11, 2014.

  1. icallshotgun88

    icallshotgun88 New Member

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    I've been in the AR world for a while, skeet shooting occasionally, handgun self defense shooting for practice pretty frequently and recently getting into precision shooting…

    but what I've never been exposed to is the world of .22lr…

    I'm looking for a .22lr so i can spend the whole day at the range without spending my whole paycheck at the range…

    so i'll tell you what i'm looking for and post some questions so you can answer accordingly…

    …I APPRECIATE ANY AND ALL HELP FROM YOU GUYS HERE AND PLEASE EXCUSE MY UNWILLINGNESS TO DO RESEARCH TO FIND THESE ANSWERS...


    I am looking for a HIGH END .22lr…not something cheap or even average. i like to buy very high quality parts/firearms because i plan on owning these things for life and passing them down to children/grand children, etc.

    I'm willing to spend around $1,000…this may seem like a lot, but today i was at my LGS and saw some for over $800 (and that was without optics!)

    I want something NOT for plinking, but rather something for precision shooting…So i'll want it drilled and tapped for a scope or have a picatinny rail on it. You may find it odd, a .22lr for precision, but its something i enjoy...(and precision shooting with my big boy bolt actions is just getting too expensive)

    I'd prefer a bolt action .22lr, but i'd settle for a semi auto if its proven to be just as accurate and reliable...

    let the questions begin…

    1. what is an acceptable range for a .22lr to be accurate out to? 200 yards? 300? 500?!

    2. what sort of groupings can be expected of an accurate .22lr? is sub MOA reasonable to expect out of a higher end .22lr?

    3. what are the names of some manufacturers that make higher end .22lr rifles? and can you possibly name some specific models that might fit my needs?

    4. I've only ever shot bulk .22lr ammo. is there such thing as match grade .22lr ammunition? and what is the average price of a 100 round box for this match grade ammo?

    5. what features/benefits do you get from paying for a high end .22lr rifle compared to the extremely popular Ruger 10/22?


    …I'll post more questions later. thanks! :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2014
  2. hmh

    hmh New Member

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    Anschutz rifle eley ammo is what most pros use kimber makes a good 22 and cz is also another one.
     

  3. Vincine

    Vincine New Member

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    let the questions begin…

    1. What is an acceptable range for a .22lr to be accurate out to? 200 yards? 300? 500?!
    Acceptable range to do what exactly? 22lr has a severe drop. High end rifles shooting top of the line ammo at 50y will get you dime sized groups. Much over 100y you're really lobbing a bullet to the target like a mortar shell. You would need MOA rings because your scope won't have enough elevation by itself.

    2. what sort of groupings can be expected of an accurate .22lr? is sub MOA reasonable to expect out of a higher end .22lr?
    Under 50 yards, competition groups are measured with a micrometer because a 1 mph cross wind will push a match bullet from the point of aim a whole tenth of an inch. Top end competition rifles with match quality ammunition group about 3/8 of an inch at 50y. Match ammo is subsonic, slow, and accurate, but it drops like a stone. High & Hyper speed ammo lose stability at about 75 yards and will keyhole the target, if you even hit the target.

    3. what are the names of some manufacturers that make higher end .22lr rifles? and can you possibly name some specific models that might fit my needs?
    Anschutz (Annie) is highest end 22lr that's popular. I'm sure you can get a good used one for $1k. CZ is next for several hundred $ new. Savage MkIIs shoot as well as CZs but are bit crude in finish comparatively.

    4. I've only ever shot bulk .22lr ammo, is there such thing as match grade .22lr ammunition? and what is the average price of a 100 round box for this match grade ammo?
    Not only is there match grade 22lr ammo, Eley makes lots of different levels of 'quality'. You can expect to pay as much for competition grade ammo as you do for everyday center fire ammo.

    5. what features/benefits do you get from paying for a high end .22lr rifle compared to the extremely popular Ruger 10/22?
    A high end rifle will give you sub 1" Groups at 100y right out of the box, with the right ammo, and without wind. A 10/22 will get you the same thing AFTER you've spent a small fortune on it.

    I don't think I've ever seen a semi auto small bore target rifle. As far as I know they're all bolt actions.

    22lr accuracy is mostly about the ammo. The cheap stuff is run off the production line going full bore and QC checks are minimal. As you go up in cost the machinery is slowed down permitting tighter tolerances and QC checks are done more frequently. Top shots even go as fare as weighing each individual round to insure consistency, and when a lot that shoots well in their firearm is discovered, they will buy A LOT of the lot number.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2014
  4. icallshotgun88

    icallshotgun88 New Member

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    thank you, sir.

    i guess my next questions would be…

    1. if a top quality .22lr bolt action can give you 1" groups at 100 yards out of the box (with the right ammo and no wind)
    ….then what sort of groupings could you expect from a 10/22 out of the box with quality ammo and no wind?

    2. you talked about spending "a small fortune" on a 10/22…exactly what upgrades are people doing to these to make them more accurate?
    (I'm asking because i love tinkering…)

    thank you
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2014
  5. mboylan

    mboylan New Member

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    A well used Anschutz could possibly fit into his budget, but not a new one. You are looking at $3000 to $4000 for a brand new Anschutz 54 benchrest rifle in an aluminum stock without the scope. Even an Anschutz 54 sporter is around $1500.

    A used Kimber 82 G can be had for less than $1000.
     
  6. mboylan

    mboylan New Member

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    You will not build a 10/22 as accurate as an equal quality single shot bolt action no matter how much you spend on it. There is always some slight bullet deformation in the feeding process.
     
  7. hairbear1

    hairbear1 Active Member

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    I use my BRNO CZ .22 both for hunting and a little bit of paper punching. I've had this gun for roughly 30 years and it's accounted for rabbits,foxes a couple of small pigs, some feral cats, a few crows and I've also shot groups around 3/4" all using HV ammo.
    I had this rifle bedded and floated which helped it a bit but even out of the box it shot very well. You can get after market triggers for the BRNO and it'll probably out live you.
     
  8. DrFootball

    DrFootball disappointed & disgusted, But DETERMINED... Lifetime Supporter

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    The CZ Semi is about as good as your going to get in a 22 Semi-Auto, except for maybe the Browning Buckmark Rifle with a bull Barrel. You CAN make a 10/22 VERY accurate, but your talking everything re-worked except for the Action itself, new barrel, new trigger. A Rimfire BDC optic( 150yds. on the paper,) there is a scope called the HAWK, which does 22BDC out to 200 yds. I have been " Tacticool- Ing my Mossberg 702, but it's just not as accurate as my 10/22 with JARD barrel and Tapco Stock...


    Sent from my iPhone using Firearms Talk
     
  9. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    Besides Annies and CZ's, there were also Remington 40X and Winchester 52 rifles. I think the 40X may still be made in the custom shop, the Win 52 went out of production in 1989. Price? Jesus wept.

    Standard range for .22 LR is 50 yards. With a GOOD target rifle and match ammo, it is possible to put 5 rds in a single ragged hole.

    You will also find surprisingly accurate Savage riles, and several of the Mossberg rifles from the 1940s and 50s will give a very high $$$ target rifle a run for the money.

    Match ammo? Lot of makers- very pricy- but Federal Champion Target Standard Velocity (if you can find it) comes close at normal prices.

    Scope? Ah, yes- although there are shooters that use only peeps or diopters. Expect to spend 50% of the cost of a rifle for a GOOD scope and mounts.

    rifles 018.jpg

    Lower end- a Mossberg 44 US, made in 1943, that will make those one-ragged-hole- groups I mentioned. If I feed it Lapua Master ammo.
     
  10. clr8ter

    clr8ter New Member

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    OP, I'd say definitely don't overlook CZ or Savage. While they are about 1/2 your budget, you could use the rest for a scope. Check out the CZ 453. That trigger is all kinds of adjustable. Maybe check out the ammo situation 1st. I wouldn't even know where to find the stuff mentioned here in my neck of the woods. It wasn't even popular before the ammo shortage. YMMV.
     
  11. Vincine

    Vincine New Member

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    This^^. Really.

    What I find is the high end match ammo can be found, because it's expensive to begin with. The more affordable stuff, not so much. At least not at prices I'm willing to pay. I'm having serious thoughts about selling my .22 powder rifles and going PCP air. Bigger upfront cost for a repeater, but one can get thousands of match grade 22 pellets for the cost of a brick of 22lr. The challenge is the same, you can practice in your back yard, and there's no real legal problems with shipping air arms or pellets, comparatively speaking. I wish I had gone with air to begin with. Even/when the current drought of 22lr resolves, It's bound to happen again, and again.
     
  12. John_Deer

    John_Deer New Member

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    When did they start allowing scopes in small bore competition? NRA smallbore competitors use iron sights that cost about the same as a Vortex scope. I have never seen a smallbore competitor weigh ammo. They are issued ammo as part of the entry fee.

    Weighing ammo and scopes are for jacklegs who will never get close to a competition or a US national team.
     
  13. Vincine

    Vincine New Member

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    I've never been to a real competition. My club does sporter rifle once a week; iron sights, standing, no sling, indoors, 50 feet. I like to shoot 100y, outdoors, with a scope, and read (curse) the wind. I was about to 'test' Wolf, CCI, Federal, and other subsonics when the drought began.
     
  14. John_Deer

    John_Deer New Member

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    Those are very tough competitions to shoot in. A local gunsmith who is really a bullseye pistol shooter won a club match like you are speaking about with a marlin 60. He borrowed my Marlin 60 for a couple weeks. The next thing you know he has a marlin 60 of his own and on a tear. At 50 feet he can put all 17 shots in the O on a coors label. I don't know what ammo he is shooting in matches. He is using CCI standard velocity ammo for practice. I would never imagine someone winning an indoor match with a semi auto.

    This is just a guess. Taking away the sling, forcing participants to shoot standing is a great equalizer.

    Most people who participate in indoor leagues in this area have never had much experience outside of the indoor range. If they had access to a 100 yard range they would be shooting in other classes. Most people in the city are stuck shooting indoors or driving 40 miles or further to an outdoor range. That is a lot of wear and tear on someone trying to pay his bills and raise a family.

    I belong to a sporting clays club. It is a long drive from the city to this facility. It costs visitors $50 to shoot 50 rounds or $100 to shoot 100 rounds. To become a member you have to pay a healthy initiation fee plus yearly dues. Despite the high price we have people who show up as a visitor a couple times a month.

    Pistol and rifle clubs charge the same fees for membership but they have very little overhead. They are not trying to maintain a 100 acre sporting clay course. The average family is priced out of the game in this area. A guy just opened a pistol/rifle range. The rifle range is 300 yards of mud. The pistol range is just straight up shooting bays. He charges $20 an hour for that farce. He has an area for run and gun matches. He charges $60 an hour to practice in the run and gun area.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2014
  15. Vincine

    Vincine New Member

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    I live in a small village in the middle of a forest. My fish & game club is a 5 minute ride to the ‘outskirts’ of town. They have a small 100y and small trap range. They do a weekly trap in warmer weather. I’m thinking about getting involved. Shells don’t seem to be as affected by the ammo drought. The dues are very reasonable.

    There are two 300y ranges an hour away from me. The closest 1000y range is 3 hours away. Too far for me to get any frequent & serious range time in. So it’s ‘scaled down’ rifle marksmanship and pistol shooting or me (cheaper too).
     
  16. Overkill0084

    Overkill0084 Active Member

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    Without knowing specifically what "precision shooting" means to you, one can only give generalized answers. Additionally, one man's "precision" can be another man's "not even close."
    Are we talking 3 Position Rifle? Smallbore silhouette? Shooting beer cans at the longest possible range? Something else entirely?
    Here's another thread with a similar discussion that you may find helpful:

    http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f21/most-accurate-factory-22lr-99865/
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2014
  17. Vincine

    Vincine New Member

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    I think most of the several hundred yard 22lr shots you see on You Tube are hitting a foot and a half to two foot square, or more, plate. Not quite an x ring.
     
  18. John_Deer

    John_Deer New Member

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    Everything is overpriced in this area. My wife is going to retire in a couple years. We are going to sell everything in this area once she retires. I joined the sporting clays club over 20 years ago. I would not be shooting sporting clays if I had to join today. Just the initiation fee is more than I pay in dues for several years.
     
  19. Highpower

    Highpower New Member

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    Here is an example from a worked over 10/22 with a Shilen bull barrel. 50 yard ammo test to see which kind of ammo the gun liked the best. The black target pasters are 3/4" diameter. It's been fed a steady diet of Lapua ammo ever since.

    [​IMG]

    However this golden oldie Rem 40-X (1963) still puts the 10/22 to shame. :p

    [​IMG]

    And in it's optional trim:

    [​IMG]
     
  20. coopertrooper

    coopertrooper New Member

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    Sub MOA is definatley acceptable from a .22 out to around 30 yards, federal premium makes match and ultra match ammo...but that'll run you around $25 for 50 rounds for ultra match and $15 for match, I have a ruger 10/22 with about 10,000 rounds through it, shoots like a dream, it's a good sturdy gun, I also have a ruger American rim fire, once I got it broken it I was surprised how accurate it shot



    - coopertrooper