22lr as a self defense round

Discussion in 'Concealed Carrying & Personal Protection' started by John_Deer, Jun 20, 2014.

  1. John_Deer

    John_Deer New Member

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    Most members of FTF see the 22 lr as inadequate for a self defense round. Yet, statistics prove otherwise. Surprisingly, every caliber that begins with a 4 (.40 S&W, .45, .44 Mag…) performed worse than the .22 caliber firearms in terms of putting the opponent in the dirt for good.

    I was quite surprised by the results of this study. Maybe this information will allow us to make better recommendations based in fact for recoil sensitive shooters, instead of our personal opinion.

    This isn't a gelatin test. This is a people shooting study, ultimately that is all that matters. Over 1,800 shootings over the course of 10 years were analyzed in this study.

    Here is the condensed version:
    http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/06/foghorn/ask-foghorn-22l-for-self-defense/

    Here is the actual study. The raw numbers are much easier to read in this article.
    http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2014
  2. eatmydust

    eatmydust New Member

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    This is only one man's opinion. I have a suspicion that some of the lethality of the .22lr can be attributed to an attitude of, "Oh, it's only .22 wound."

    Don't get me wrong, I am not now or ever will be willing to stand down range of a .22lr weapon.
     

  3. wknight40

    wknight40 New Member

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    Most people feel that the lowly .22lr is not a good self defense round because it does not make a big manly hole when it it hits. It also does not require a big manly grip to control the recoil. I have yet to find anyone that wants to put the .22lr to a live test either.

    What I have seen with most .22lr pistols is they hold plenty of ammo in a small package. With it's extremely low recoil it would not be hard to empty the mag into the bad guy without losing your target.

    Yes there maybe better options but never count the little .22lr out. People have used it on hog and deer. Granted in a lot of states it is not legal to use .22 rim fire on a deer but does not mean it cannot do the job.

    Besides if it wasn't such a good self defense round why are the prepper's buying up so much of it?
     
  4. John_Deer

    John_Deer New Member

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    The truth about guns article was just one mans opinion. But they Buckeye Firearms article was a 10 year compilation of data that involved over 1,800 shootings. I doubt the number of people that did not seek medical attention after being shot by a 22 in the chest exceeded 12. Well, this is Ohio we are talking about. You may be right.

    I am not willing to stand down range of anything larger than a Daisy Red Ryder.
     
  5. chloeshooter

    chloeshooter New Member

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    22 L.R.

    L = last
    R = resort
     
  6. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    While ANY gun can produce a lethal wound (I have read the Medical Examiner's autopsy report on a fatal shooting with a Sheridan 5mm air rifle) the issue in self defense is not lethality. It IS stopping the threat.

    There is a lot of data available under the category of "one shot stops". Note the word STOP. Did not say fatal shooting- says stops. If I shoot you, and you bleed out in 10 minutes, I have to be concerned about what you are doing in that 10 minutes. My goal is to stop you- in a matter of seconds- not minutes.

    I have no question of the potential LETHALITY of a .22LR- have taken enough small game with one to respect that little 40 grain pill. But I DO question it's ability to reliably STOP an assailant in a real world setting. If the .22 LR was actually effective for that, would expect to find a lot of .22LR firearms in the holsters of the armies and police departments of the world.

    Link to the FBI report on handgun wounds-http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/ab991

    Includes this quote- and I must agree with it-
    It is critical to bear in mind that the single most critical factor remains penetration. While penetration up to 18 inches is preferable, a handgun bullet MUST reliably penetrate 12 inches of soft body tissue at a minimum regardless of whether it expands or not. If the bullet does not reliably penetrate to those depths, it is not an effective bullet for law enforcement use.
     
  7. GTX63

    GTX63 New Member

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    Oh heck yes it is a self defense round. I promise you if someone is coming at me and all I have is my wife's 22 lr 1911, I will stand my ground and empty that mag if need be, and not fear doing so.
     
  8. John_Deer

    John_Deer New Member

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    Your link is to CA gun laws.

    I have seen deer that were shot with a 22. Every bullet passed through the deer. Many of these shots hit more than one bone. A deer's bones are much more dense and stronger than a human bone. These shots were made at ranges much further than common self defense ranges.

    Law enforcement officers should be wary. 22 wmr gold dot's penetrate 10% ballistic gelatin very close to 12" from a NAA revolver with a 1.9" barrel. A gold dot would easily penetrate 12" of soft tissue from a semi auto with a 4" barrel. The semi auto would not allow gasses to escape from the cylinder gap. In kommiefornia and NY the average officer on the beat might be toting a PMR30 with a 10 shot magazine.
     
  9. danf_fl

    danf_fl Retired Supporter

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    The .22LR can be used in self defense, but......

    Get in a pen with a 120# wild pig that is pi$$ed and the .22LR.

    If you won't be willing to do that, then how come you expect it to stop a 200# BG on drugs?
     
  10. Overkill0084

    Overkill0084 Active Member

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    First let me state: I hate these threads. They generally degenerate into a caliber pissing contest.

    Sure a .22 will do the job. Is anyone going to seriously argue that it's the best tool for the job?

     
  11. c3shooter

    c3shooter Administrator Staff Member

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    Last edited: Jun 20, 2014
  12. John_Deer

    John_Deer New Member

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    Gel test of a CCI velocitor. The velocitor penetrated 15.5 inches of gelation fired from a 1911 with a 5" barrel. A CCI mini mag with a solid bullet would penetrate a lot further.

     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2014
  13. John_Deer

    John_Deer New Member

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    Under the circumstances I stated in my original post the 22lr might very well be the best tool for the job. Some people are recoil sensitive. There is nothing you can do to change their fear of a larger cartridge. Which is better a 22 lr or a lamp?
     
  14. Yunus

    Yunus New Member

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    Ignore the ballistics for a moment.

    Reliability is a bigger concern. I've never had a commercial centerfire round fail to fire because of the round. I've had dozens of rimfire rounds fail to fire.
     
  15. JohnJak

    JohnJak New Member

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    If the round doesn't have a macho recoil when shot it must be an inferior round for self defense.
     
  16. Overkill0084

    Overkill0084 Active Member

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    The person you describe is probably better served with pepper spray. They are untrainable and an example of why some people shouldn't own firearms. Sad but true. I have a hard time believing anyone with those issues could be reasonably described as a competent gun owner.

    Depends on what you consider macho I guess. There are plenty of low & mild recoil calibers out there that are clearly superior to the .22LR. Would anyone complain about the horrific and terrifying recoil of a .22 WMR? Seems to me a a Ruger LCR or Charter Arms in .22wmr would be a performance upgrade. Especially with actual ammo designed for short barrels and SD use.
    Out of a tiny little pistol, the .32 acp is superior to a .22LR. I don't recall much in the way of physical trauma for people who have been subjected to that horror.
    One need not be subjected to traumatic levels of recoil to gain a performance upgrade over .22LR. Hell, a .38 special w/ low recoil loads is pretty manageable for all but the most infirm and/or incompetent.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2014
  17. Highpower

    Highpower New Member

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    And generally the motive behind posting them in the first place.
     
  18. John_Deer

    John_Deer New Member

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    I have had squib loads, bad primers, bullets pressed in on an angle and other problems I can't recall at this moment with centerfire ammo. If you shoot premium rimfire ammo it is just as reliable as centerfire ammo. Rimfire ammo gets a bad rap due to bulk ammo. There was a time when rimfire ammo was not as reliable as centerfire ammo but those days have passed.

    22 wmr ammo is primed in the same manner as 22 LR ammo. 22 wmr ammo is expensive compared to 22 lr. Given the high cost of 22 wmr ammo and the fact I am going to shoot a 22 wmr like a centerfire rifle I always buy premium ammo for the 22 mag. I have never had a 22 mag cartridge fail to fire. I have shot about the same amount of 22 wmr ammo as I have 357 mag ammo in the past two years. I have had one squib load of 357 mag and no failures of 22 wmr ammo. It makes no difference what caliber you shoot you need to be prepared to deal with malfunctions.
     
  19. danf_fl

    danf_fl Retired Supporter

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    There is one problem. The total number of shootings per caliber are not the same.

    The more you toss a coin, the greater chances you have of obtaining a 50-50 head vs tails.

    Now, if there were a study of 1000 shootings per caliber and the results broken down (as in the second reference), then I would tend to believe the results more that the .22LR is a formidable SD caliber if the results remained the same. But to compare 154 shootings to 85 shootings is like comparing apples to oranges.
     
  20. shooter58

    shooter58 New Member

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    When it comes to the debate of how effective a .22lr can be for defense, let me ask you this.
    If you woke to the sound of an intruder in your home and you knew he was armed with a .22lr handgun, would you have any less fear or react in any way different than if you thought him to have something bigger?
    For me that puts things in better perspective.