21 ft. Rule

Discussion in 'Concealed Carrying & Personal Protection' started by jjones45, Mar 24, 2014.

  1. jjones45

    jjones45 New Member

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    I was way watching one of my favorite shows the other day called "Justified" and there is this criminal who since his introduction this season always challenges armed personnel with a large knife and the infamous 21ft rule. Now I know this is a tv show with Hollywood stamps all over it but it got me to thinking. I remember on best defense or some other show a while back they put together a scenario where an armed knife attacker is coming at a civilian carrying a gun from 21ft. They all took turns and sadly all pretty much failed miserably while trying to deploy their weapon and move away from the attack, with one guy falling down completely out of control. I know of the tactics that one could use like side step and such but I hadn't really practiced this type defense until I seen this episode. Considering we need another person to help us train for this type situation kind of makes this hard for some of us, but I highly recommend practicing this with the wife or friends at least a couple of times. Please use air soft pistols and plastic knifes by the way!!!! Thought I would say this just in case some safety nazi can't figure out a safe way to do this without giving me a hard time. I know there are many variables that can't be accounted for like the size, speed and determination or the attacker or the skill of the gun holder(extreme ex.. Bob Munden). And I know attacks on average are at much closer distances which really makes me wonder. I really believe I couldn't achieve success without tactics like off hand shielding or side stepping. Just out of curiosity, how do you think you would fair vs. an attacker in a 21ft rule scenario?


    Never enough guns or ammo
     
  2. rjd3282

    rjd3282 New Member

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    Kind of makes a good case for open carry doesn't it.
     

  3. jjones45

    jjones45 New Member

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    I agree, but with practice the time of weapon deployment from cc or oc is minimal. This is not an oc vs. cc argument. I searched the web and found some instances where armed people were killed by knife attacks so it does indeed happen. How do you feel about this "21 ft rule"? BS or do you think it's legitimate?


    Never enough guns or ammo
     
  4. danf_fl

    danf_fl Retired Supporter

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    "Just out of curiosity, how do you think you would fair vs. an attacker in a 21ft rule scenario?"
    Considering the size of my kitchen and what accuracy my wife has with dishes,



    Not much
     
  5. John_Deer

    John_Deer New Member

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    I saw a YouTube video of test. He could draw his weapon and fire an aimed shot at a 6" target in around 1.4 seconds open carry. It took him 1.6 seconds to fire the same Glock 19 concealed appendix carry. If you practice you can draw a gun pretty fast from anywhere.

    I know there are people here at FTF that can draw their gun and get off an aimed shot in .25 seconds. I have been told numerous times how fast people can draw their pistol. I have been frieght trained by people that can draw a pistol and fire it faster than I can shoot a shotgun I am holding in my hands. My question for them is why haven't they replaced Jerry Miculek?
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2014
  6. rjd3282

    rjd3282 New Member

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    I think it's a legitimate concern. I wasn't trying to make an oc vs. cc argument, just making the point that sometimes "minimal" is the difference between life and death. I just hope a jury understands the 21 ft. rule. You shoot a guy who has a knife at 21 ft. they might just feel that wasn't self defense.
     
  7. danf_fl

    danf_fl Retired Supporter

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    Some of us just want to let Jerry have all the glory. :)
     
  8. rifleman1

    rifleman1 New Member

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    Mythbusters did this don't bring a knife to a gun fight and showed that a knife can beat a gun easily.
     
  9. therewolf

    therewolf New Member

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    IMO, you can lose the advantage very quickly,

    if you are not aware of your surroundings.

    In any event, a CC isn't a bulletproof shield,

    or any guarantee you'll live to 100.

    How much are you willing to prep and practice?

    How fast is your rig, to begin with?

    How well can you take care of yourself

    without a gun?
     
  10. jjones45

    jjones45 New Member

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    Well I'm not gonna shoot anybody at 21 ft, but if I'm involved in a self defense shooting it's damn sure because the bad guy was in the act of attacking me.


    Never enough guns or ammo
     
  11. eatmydust

    eatmydust New Member

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    The 21' rule is not BS. Watch some vids on it, people can close that distance in short order. I'm thinking that if I have to shoot someone at approx. 21' that is holding a knife and threatening me, as long as the bullet enters the front and/or exits the back, I'll take my chances with a jury as opposed to an angry/psycho person with a knife.
     
  12. Steel_Talon

    Steel_Talon New Member

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    Break it down to Action vs. Reaction.....

    "In simplicity" Action require two steps; thought and do (very fast.)

    EX. knife / charge.

    Reaction requires three steps 1.Visually see 2. Interpret the visual 3. Then react (much slower.)

    EX. See man charging with knife, / "Danger" formulate plan / Draw pistol-> rotate off line (create space)-> and instinctively fire pistol.

    If you miss or fail to hit "DRT" he can get to you.. If you rotate off axis and run to create further space or gain an obstacle then shoot you have a better chance... If you start the encounter with your pistol in your hand you'll have greater odds of preventing injury to yourself.
     
  13. JonM

    JonM Moderator

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    that video is a contrivance of propoganda designed to deny ccw is effective.

    the "21 foot" rule is what police officers use when they have their firearm drawn and pointed at a subject. its got NOTHING to do with ccw or personal protection as a civilian.

    IF you are ever being attacked by a knife wielding lunatic DONT stand there and draw run WHILE you are drawing your fire arm. i GAURUNTEE you that if i see a knife wielding goblin coming at me with a 21 foot lead he will not get to me before i have gone far enough to draw and shoot. even if he does reach you continue to draw. your GOING to get cut but you will get rounds into the goblin.
     
  14. John_Deer

    John_Deer New Member

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    Exactly how do you start the encounter with a pistol in your hand? I am a dumb redneck. I need some help with this one.
     
  15. therewolf

    therewolf New Member

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    IMO, having a CC with you is great, but many times

    you are going to have to respond to an attacker without

    it, till you can buy time to draw. If an attacker with a knife

    knows what he is doing, he can bleed you out in less than a

    minute, if you let him.
     
  16. Axxe55

    Axxe55 The Apocalypse Is Coming.....

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    the 21 foot rule was designed and intended for an officer with his pistol already in hand and ready to fire.

    the sheer speed a person can cover 21 feet might suprise many. there are videos that show this. it's rather eye opening.

    if i were to encounter someone with a knife and i didn't have a pistol in hand, i think i would be looking to put as much distance as possible between us.
     
  17. John_Deer

    John_Deer New Member

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    I am really more scared of the guy who is just plumb nuts than a guy that knows what he is doing. I still have a habit of standing at parade rest. The trained fighter will see my unusual stance and assume I could be a handful. The nut job won't care. He will just bull rush me while slashing with the knife. I might disarm the nut job but I will likely need stitches before it is over with. I still have a scar across my fingers and a couple nice scars on my thumb from disarming a drunk. I didn't have a gun and never got a chance to draw my knife. He was on me that fast. I ended up hitting the crazy bastard with an oak limb to stop him. It was pure luck I got hold of the limb.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2014
  18. jjones45

    jjones45 New Member

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    Wow that's a very similar story of a guy I know. Some guy accused him of stealing some money from him and rushed him. He tried to punch the attacker out of instinct and got hit with a box cutter the length of his bicep. Sadly now his strong hand isn't so strong and was left pretty much cripple. He told me he didn't even have time to think as he never seen this man before and the next thing he knew this guy was right on top of him. He to hit the guy with a big stick and stopped the attack. He had a buddy take him to the hospital and was life flighted to Toledo. Victim of crime money and two years later a cripple hand but at least he has his life. That's crazy


    Never enough guns or ammo
     
  19. robocop10mm

    robocop10mm Lifetime Supporting Member Lifetime Supporter

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    Holstered? 30+ feet. 21 feet, the knife wins
     
  20. DrFootball

    DrFootball disappointed & disgusted, But DETERMINED... Lifetime Supporter

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    Outstanding Thread!

    For me, while I'm quite "Racked up" from injuries, I can still raise enough "Steam" to "Create some extra space." Recently I took the EDCC out of the Pocket holster and put it back in the IWB for just that reason....because I can get to it quicker then where it was,

    Today I wore it all day from 9am to 10pm, and no one who came in contact with me knew....and that's how it's supposed to be...


    Sent from my iPad using Firearms Talk