I currently own a Remingtion 504 22lr. This gun is capable of groups 0.3" or less at 50 yards. Here is my dilema, after sitting for any amout of time greater than a couple of hours, the first 2 or 3 shots out of the gun will not hit within 3 inches of zero. After a couple of shots the gun will work it's way back to zero where I could then put bullet on bullet all day long, until I pack the gun away. The first shots are always low, but could be left or right of zero. It does not seam to be temperature related, nor does it matter the cleanliness of the barrel or the type of ammunition. Has anyone out there run into this, and is there a cure?????
1st round blues
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First off, Welcome to the Forum -
You are experiencing what Snipers call the Cold Bore Shot. It absolutely has to do with the temperature of the steel in the barrel with your first shot, or shots in the case of the small round like the .22
That is what makes a Tactical Shooter / Sniper for a SWAT team, for the military or for the Secret Service so special as opposed to normal shooters.
They only get one shot, and on top of everything else they have to contend with, they have to contend with accuracy differences that a Cold Bore shot involves.
Some "sharpshooters" who take professional shots for less than 100 yards, which is your average police "sniper" - will clean their rifle, then fire a fouling round and leave the bore dirty when they store the weapon to help assist in this compensation.
For longer range shots, there is something called a Cold Zero - which is usually several clicks of the scope off what their normal zero is.
In this day and age, with the ability to put together tack driving rifles right from the manufacturer, the two great things the average shooter has to deal with is the cold bore first shot, and the environmental conditions that the shot is being taken in....
I would suggest reading "The Ultimate Sniper" by Maj. John Plaster as he has a TON of information not only about this issue, but about accurate shooting in general and tricks / tips the average shooter can utilize to improve their skills....
JD
You are experiencing what Snipers call the Cold Bore Shot. It absolutely has to do with the temperature of the steel in the barrel with your first shot, or shots in the case of the small round like the .22
That is what makes a Tactical Shooter / Sniper for a SWAT team, for the military or for the Secret Service so special as opposed to normal shooters.
They only get one shot, and on top of everything else they have to contend with, they have to contend with accuracy differences that a Cold Bore shot involves.
Some "sharpshooters" who take professional shots for less than 100 yards, which is your average police "sniper" - will clean their rifle, then fire a fouling round and leave the bore dirty when they store the weapon to help assist in this compensation.
For longer range shots, there is something called a Cold Zero - which is usually several clicks of the scope off what their normal zero is.
In this day and age, with the ability to put together tack driving rifles right from the manufacturer, the two great things the average shooter has to deal with is the cold bore first shot, and the environmental conditions that the shot is being taken in....
I would suggest reading "The Ultimate Sniper" by Maj. John Plaster as he has a TON of information not only about this issue, but about accurate shooting in general and tricks / tips the average shooter can utilize to improve their skills....
JD
I think cold bore is part of the problem, but three inches off zero? That's six minutes of angle, and a lot of space.
I suspect a bedding problem that changes as the rifle barrel heats up. Most likely you zeroed the gun with a warm bore...(well, you had to if it's zeroed as you said.) You might also check the bedding screws.
If the fore end is pressing against the barrel when it's warm, it will cause the zero to move. Relieving the barrel channel cure the problem if that's what it is. BUT...cold bore zero has a definite affect on zero. It's just that three inches is (IMO) beyond a cold bore.
Another thing is begining shooting with a clean bore, which was mentioned earlier as affecting accuracy. A clean .22 bore doesn't necessarily promote accuracy, although it can be overcome if you know how your rifle points with a clean bore. I'm going to go out on a limb here, but I almost never clean my .22 rinfires. Maybe after 1000 rounds I'd run a patch thru them, but that's just me.
I suspect a bedding problem that changes as the rifle barrel heats up. Most likely you zeroed the gun with a warm bore...(well, you had to if it's zeroed as you said.) You might also check the bedding screws.
If the fore end is pressing against the barrel when it's warm, it will cause the zero to move. Relieving the barrel channel cure the problem if that's what it is. BUT...cold bore zero has a definite affect on zero. It's just that three inches is (IMO) beyond a cold bore.
Another thing is begining shooting with a clean bore, which was mentioned earlier as affecting accuracy. A clean .22 bore doesn't necessarily promote accuracy, although it can be overcome if you know how your rifle points with a clean bore. I'm going to go out on a limb here, but I almost never clean my .22 rinfires. Maybe after 1000 rounds I'd run a patch thru them, but that's just me.
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I am going to say check the bedding and make sure your scope is torqued correctly. Make sure you are not over torquing the action as well.
You might head on over to the remington message board at rimfirecentral.com them remington boys over there are real good and figuring out what is wrong.
You might head on over to the remington message board at rimfirecentral.com them remington boys over there are real good and figuring out what is wrong.
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I agree with JD. Heat (or lack thereof) can do very interesting things to metal. On a side note, I need a floated barrel 
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There IS a cure for your problem! Your actual zero is the cold bore shot, with the rest walking in an group differently placed than actual cold bore zero. Dillinger is correct and has beaten me to the post (as usual). What you need to do is have your barreled action (or just barrel) cyrogenically frozen to relieve all stress. Simply send it off to 300 below for their treatment. It's worked wonders for MANY rifles I've barreled/built-even to the point of automatically having it done if the customer approves.
Shilen also sells their barrels for profit and would have you believe they make the best ones out there.
Cryogenics has a mystique about it that some people see real benefit from and some do not.
We have a 1,000 yard benchrest shooter, who is quite accomplished and is in fact either Single Distinguished or Double Distinguished, who will ONLY shoot a 30" Hart barrel that was sent to One Cryo. That is the only weapon he will compete with and swears by it up and down.
We also have a world record holder that shoots a Krieger with nothing special done to it other than the custom build.
Some people it works for, some, not so much. stalkingbear has a plethora of knowledge and has produced many fine articles and contributions, so if he has people that it has worked for, I am inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt....
JD
I'm not impuning anyone's knowledge, just putting out another point of view. I don't know how much it would cost to freeze a barrel, but the gunsmithing cost of remoing the barrel and shipping it off is an expense I'd only make after careful consideation, as it's bound to raise the overall cost in the rifle. Nothing wrong with other pionts of view, that's the way to reach an informed decision.
I've read favorable articles about cyrogenics, maybe witten by stalkingbear, but none of them mentioned correcting a 6 MOA error.
I still think it's something in the beddng.
I've read favorable articles about cyrogenics, maybe witten by stalkingbear, but none of them mentioned correcting a 6 MOA error.
I still think it's something in the beddng.
And that very well could be the case. He could also have other issues that we can't diagnose because we can't see the rifle and inspect what he has going.
What we know is that his first couple of shots are off. If his bedding is all, or part of the problem, I would expect it would take more than 3 shots from a .22 to heat up the barrel to such an extent as to make the entire thing warp enough to have outside pressure from the fore-end. But, we don't know.
I don't believe his action screws are loose, because he is nailing .3's all day once the weapon is "warmed up".
I also don't believe his scope is mal-adjusted, because it would take a hell of a lot of heat to warp the rings above the action to get that out of whack.
We just don't know - so everyone is offering some options of some things to try.
To pull a barrel and send it to One Cryo, and then re-install it, would run a flat $60 from our shop and whatever One Cryo is charging at the time.
He could probably pull the entire action from the stock and perform a cheap and easy at home bedding job with a kit from Brownell's for less than $60, not factoring in the time he spends doing the job.
For that matter he could pull the action and sandbag it in place and fire it without the stock for free and see if the same conditions occur. *shrug*
But we don't know, because we don't know the condition of the weapon as it sits now.
Cold Bore / Cold Zero is a known occurance for every rifle - and whether or not it would contribute to a 3 inch miss or not, it does explain at least part of the problem.
But again, we don't know, because we can't inspect the weapon at hand and see where the problem may arise.
JD
What we know is that his first couple of shots are off. If his bedding is all, or part of the problem, I would expect it would take more than 3 shots from a .22 to heat up the barrel to such an extent as to make the entire thing warp enough to have outside pressure from the fore-end. But, we don't know.
I don't believe his action screws are loose, because he is nailing .3's all day once the weapon is "warmed up".
I also don't believe his scope is mal-adjusted, because it would take a hell of a lot of heat to warp the rings above the action to get that out of whack.
We just don't know - so everyone is offering some options of some things to try.
To pull a barrel and send it to One Cryo, and then re-install it, would run a flat $60 from our shop and whatever One Cryo is charging at the time.
He could probably pull the entire action from the stock and perform a cheap and easy at home bedding job with a kit from Brownell's for less than $60, not factoring in the time he spends doing the job.
For that matter he could pull the action and sandbag it in place and fire it without the stock for free and see if the same conditions occur. *shrug*
But we don't know, because we don't know the condition of the weapon as it sits now.
Cold Bore / Cold Zero is a known occurance for every rifle - and whether or not it would contribute to a 3 inch miss or not, it does explain at least part of the problem.
But again, we don't know, because we can't inspect the weapon at hand and see where the problem may arise.
JD
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Whether it's the scope, mount, bedding, or barrel, I've got 1st hand data results based on probably a few hundred rifle barrels, a goodly amount of them are competition barrels that stopped all "walking" AFTER they were frozen. Point in fact-freezing is simply a post machining stress reliving process that not only involves freezing, but also heating. I've got actual before AND after targets that clearly show NO walking WHATSOEVER-even when rapid fired. I recently built a long range "deer rifle" for myself chambered for my new wildcat. It's krieger barrel has been cyroed and will shoot sub 1/2" groups at 200 yards! Not to hijack this thread but just wanted to share MY experience with cyroing barrels. If he was closer, perhaps we could help him more.
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You know what amazes me. My grand father was shooting groups in the .1 and .2 50 years ago with milsurp actions. He did run the best barrel at the time and he always had good glass on top of his rifles.
I think it is a combo of things. There is no way heat or lack there of in a 22lr will account for over 3" of movement. I am sorry there just ain't no way that will happen. I am going to say it is 1, bedding, 2. mounts and rings, 3. heat and 4. Ammo and maybe a few other things as well. 5. That's a PEBTAC problem. (Problem Exists Between Trigger And Chair)
Shoot you might even have knocked the scope and the lense is lose in the tube then you stop shooting it and lay it down on its side or stand it up at an angle the lens settles and moves the POI. I would start by mounting a different scope and see if that helps. then get your self a fat wrench. and check your torque on all screws. If you don't know the torque specs contact a gunsmith or the manufacture. just like a car if it ain't torqued right it may fail. Think about it if you torque the head bolts in the wrong order you warp the head. If you put to much torque then you break the bolts not enough and you blow head gaskets.
I think it is a combo of things. There is no way heat or lack there of in a 22lr will account for over 3" of movement. I am sorry there just ain't no way that will happen. I am going to say it is 1, bedding, 2. mounts and rings, 3. heat and 4. Ammo and maybe a few other things as well. 5. That's a PEBTAC problem. (Problem Exists Between Trigger And Chair)
Shoot you might even have knocked the scope and the lense is lose in the tube then you stop shooting it and lay it down on its side or stand it up at an angle the lens settles and moves the POI. I would start by mounting a different scope and see if that helps. then get your self a fat wrench. and check your torque on all screws. If you don't know the torque specs contact a gunsmith or the manufacture. just like a car if it ain't torqued right it may fail. Think about it if you torque the head bolts in the wrong order you warp the head. If you put to much torque then you break the bolts not enough and you blow head gaskets.
I know it's not the same thing, but I had a .22 Hornet that would climb three inches @100 yards because of side pressure from the fore-end. It got a lot hotter than a 22 rimfire, but it wasn't like scorching or anything. The grain of the wood in the fore-end was biased and it didn't take much heat to put a tiny bit of pressure, and that changed the barrel dynamics dramatically.
It was an odd problem in that I'd shoot a couple of good rounds, adjust the sight to bring it back to zero, and by that time the bbl ha cooled off and the next group would be off in right field. I thought it was the scope.
I agree that with your breakdown in most likely case scenarios. Espcially those up front. I've never seen a rifle yet that was harmed by floating the barrel.
It was an odd problem in that I'd shoot a couple of good rounds, adjust the sight to bring it back to zero, and by that time the bbl ha cooled off and the next group would be off in right field. I thought it was the scope.
I agree that with your breakdown in most likely case scenarios. Espcially those up front. I've never seen a rifle yet that was harmed by floating the barrel.
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Since it was introduced in 2004, you might want to call Remington and talk to them directly about it before changing anything. I would think it'd still be under warranty at this point. They might have you send the rifle back & stick a new barrel on it themselves. They'll definitely test the living daylights out of it.
Cold barrel shouldn't be THAT far off...
After that...
Check the bedding (or lack thereof).
Checking to see if the stock is slightly cracked/warped/etc at mounting screw points would be the next thing to do.
Check scope, mounts, & rings
Might be time to pillar bed the action & float the barrel before going to all the trouble to Cryo it...it's less expensive. And fairly easy, just time-consuming.
The current price for One Cryo ( One Cryo Cryogenic Gun Barrel Tempering for Increased Accuracy) is $45 plus $10 return shipping plus whatever you pay the local gunsmith to take it off & ship it ($60) if you don't do it yourself.
Other options include purchasing a new barrel...
Waitaminit, just thought of something else....you aren't using Remington Golden .22lr ammo, are you??? That stuff is spotty even through Rail Gun.
Cold barrel shouldn't be THAT far off...
After that...
Check the bedding (or lack thereof).
Checking to see if the stock is slightly cracked/warped/etc at mounting screw points would be the next thing to do.
Check scope, mounts, & rings
Might be time to pillar bed the action & float the barrel before going to all the trouble to Cryo it...it's less expensive. And fairly easy, just time-consuming.
The current price for One Cryo ( One Cryo Cryogenic Gun Barrel Tempering for Increased Accuracy) is $45 plus $10 return shipping plus whatever you pay the local gunsmith to take it off & ship it ($60) if you don't do it yourself.
Other options include purchasing a new barrel...
Waitaminit, just thought of something else....you aren't using Remington Golden .22lr ammo, are you??? That stuff is spotty even through Rail Gun.
Success!!!!!!!
Here is what I did - Eliminated all points of contact between stock and barrel. Removed front anchoring screw which threads through magazine latch and into barrel seat. None of this helped much. Then changed scope and rings, and problem all but eliminated. Not sure if it was the scope, rings, or how they were torked on, but as of today life is good. Thank you all for the suggestions. It was a huge help.
Here is what I did - Eliminated all points of contact between stock and barrel. Removed front anchoring screw which threads through magazine latch and into barrel seat. None of this helped much. Then changed scope and rings, and problem all but eliminated. Not sure if it was the scope, rings, or how they were torked on, but as of today life is good. Thank you all for the suggestions. It was a huge help.
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glad you got it fixed.
Glad you didn't have to freeze your barrel either.
Glad you didn't have to freeze your barrel either.
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