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Bump fire Stocks Dealine is almost here

2K views 36 replies 13 participants last post by  Ghost1958 
#1 ·
On the 25th of this month, the bump Foire Stocks\binary triggers public submission dealine will hit, and the BATFE will start their consideration on how to rule on possible changes to the laws covering such items. this may make then be reclassed as select fire weapons, and banned, federally, from that point onward.

If you have not done so already, please comment on the subject, in a polite and civil manner, and voice your opinions or objections to such a ruling by the BATFE, as well as contact your Congress Critters, to chide them, again, politely, for not having the intestinal fortitude to floor a Bill, and instead, trying to set up the BATFE as the fal guy.

BATFE link: https://www.regulations.gov/comment?D=ATF-2018-0001-7186

Congressman look up link for contact information: https://callyourrep.co/

pleae take the time to remind them that they can be replaced.

even if, as I do, you fel that bump fire stocks and binary triggers are novelties, and nothng more, remember that said reclassification can be extended to other devices, like lighter bolt carriers, lighter trigger springs, and muzzle brakes that optimize gas flow to lessen the time between shots, could, at a later date, be placed in this class, and banned, as a result.
 
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#3 ·
Gee you could say the same thing about these subjects: budget, daca, aca, immigration,...

Congress does so well. NOT.
They can't decide how to pore water out of a boot with the directions on the heel.

On bump stocks, I 50-50 . If you are impaired and need it then it should be legal.
 
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#4 ·
If the ATF adds a regulation on bump stocks, wonder which two existing gun regulations they will do away with as Fed agencies are now required to do?

I've called my reps and written them concerning this subject as kfox advocates.
The ATF I won't waste my time with. They are not elected and public comment is so much dog poo to them.
 
#5 ·
i'm definitely in the camp that i think they are nothing more than a novelty, but being banned, or regulated as the same as fully auto firearms, simply because one crazed lunatic used them, is unrealistic. it serves no purpose. it's simply one of those knee jerk reactions based upon irrational emotional feelings about a horrific tragedy that left many dead and wounded.

doing something, for the simple reason of just doing something, whether it serves a purpose in any way, is ridiculous and pointless. but it does appease some who relate to such things on an emotional level, rather than using reason and common sense.
 
#7 ·
I'd vote to ban them.
I never thought they had any practical purpose other than to give owners jolly's and to burn up lots of ammo aimlessly.
and sure enough, some nut goes and uses one to kill a lot of people.
society has proven that it isn't mature enough to respect and guard this invention.
call it corporal punishment if you will, but since its not something every family needs to get thru life....make it go away.
if someone wants one? make it class 3 and tax them to high heaven for it.
 
#8 ·
As is your right to do so Bobski. However, this pending rewrite is not just limited to bump stocks or binary triggers. It could be written in such a way that it would cover any part added to a firearm that can increase it's rate of fire. For example:

Ported choke tubes, as they reduce recoil, allowing the shooter to reacquire a sight picture, and get that second shot off sooner.

Aftermarket\modified triggers and sears, as a lighter trigger pull would allow one to discharge that first round, and any rounds after that point, sooner that the stock unit would have.

As to limiting things to need, and using that as the basis, do your really need to go and shoot trap? It's not like it's feeding your family now, is it?

If we base it on need, grocery stores sell meat, so you don't need to have a gun to hunt, target shooting, unless it is an occupation, is not a need, so you don't need a .22, and we have a military and LE in thios country, so you don't need a firearm for self defense, now do you?

As I don't own a Slide Fire stock, or a binary trigger, such a rewrite on the existing code, really wouldn't directly affect me personally, and I could give a $#!+ less, as I never intend to own such items. however, the slippery slope that could follow, or the number of things that could also be banned depending on the wording of said rewrite, could very well have such an affect, either down the road, or now, if it's worded as ANY device that allows the trigger to be manipulated faster that a stock unit could be.

Suddenly, the BX trigger group in my 10/22, and the light wieght bolt in it, as well as the spring kit in a couple of my handguns, would then potentially, be an illegal modification, and unless I remove them, and surrender them to LE for destruction\disposal, I am, at that point, a felon.

Or the porting in the barrels of that high end Browning Citori that you use to shoot trap, could also be illegal, as it allows a quicker follow up shot.

That is my point, and why I want folks to write in, as, just as it was with the Unsafe Act in NY, it can affect ALL firearm owners in a negative manner.

The "One feature" rule of the Unsafe Act, also banned thumbhole stocks and threaded barrels on target model semi autos, like the factory 10/22 and the mini 14 target models. Not just ARs.

I
have no desire for, or need of a slide fire unit, as I can't see the point in spending $400, before the panic, as they are now over $800 on the secondary market, for something that is going to cost me $16 in ammo every 5 seconds, when I use it.

but I fully support the RIGHT of anyone who wants one, can afford it, can afford to feed it, and has a legal right to it, to own one, which is why I wrote the BATFE, and my Reps in DC.

I can respect your right to feel the way you do, but you kind of need to look at the big picture here. It's not about the SFS\BT for me. It's about everything else that can follow after that point, and what will also be affected if aftermarket devices are added to the Select Fire class, and hoiw that will affect the industry, and the individual firearm owner\2A supporter.

all of which are things I pointed out to both the BATFE, and my Congressmen.
 
#9 ·
I do not own any bump fire stock or binary trigger (whatever that is :confused:.) Nor do I have the desire to procure either.
Any infringement is unconstitutional. Society accepted the “ban” on automatic weapons and people found ways to provide similar functionality without violating that law. Now the government wants to outlaw legal alternatives.
 
#10 ·
I'd vote to ban them.
I never thought they had any practical purpose other than to give owners jolly's and to burn up lots of ammo aimlessly.
and sure enough, some nut goes and uses one to kill a lot of people.
society has proven that it isn't mature enough to respect and guard this invention.
call it corporal punishment if you will, but since its not something every family needs to get thru life....make it go away.
if someone wants one? make it class 3 and tax them to high heaven for it.
i have to agree with Mr. Kfox on this, that you are not seeing the big picture. once they get their foot in the door with one more new gun law, and it passes, it works into opening the door for more of them. kind of like the frog and the boiling water. increase the water temperature a little at a time, and the poor frog never notices until it's too late.

and it seems you are really passionate about shotguns and i guess what, skeet, or trap shooting? and you might be thinking your shotguns are safe, if you decide that bumpstocks should be banned. okay. and it might not be in your lifetime that pump, or semi-auto shotguns are determined to be unnecessary, and banned, but it could happen in your children's, or grandchildren's lifetime.

and what about all the law abiding citizens that already own them, that aren't using theirs for nefarious and horrific deeds? why should they be penalized for the deeds of one crazed lunatic? and if we go by your thinking on that, there's plenty of legally acquired firearms that criminals, or lunatics use every day to commit criminal acts with. are we going to ban them, just because a criminal or lunatic used them in an unlawful manner? revolvers? pump shotguns? semi-auto shotguns and pistols? and so on? my father bought two of them maybe a year or so ago. i sure don't want him being banned from legally owing them! why should he be lumped into the same category as some lunatic in Las Vegas who went on a killing spree? my father is a law abiding gun owner, who has carry permit, carries everyday, is lifetime patron member of the NRA and has been a member since the mid 1960's. my nieces love shooting their grandfather's AR's with the bumpstocks. why should they be deprived of them as well? they are 14 and 16 and enjoy shooting guns. so for me, it's not about my personal desires, but the desires of other law abiding gun owners, and future generations of gun owners, like my own children, my nieces, and my future grandchildren.

then there is the support thing. personally, i think that bumpstocks are a novelty, a waste of good ammo, and rather stupid, and have no desire to ever own one. but under no reasons, would i ever decide what another law abiding citizen should or shouldn't have, if that is their desire to own them. i feel exactly the same way about fully auto firearms. have no desire whatsoever to own one, but i support the right of others to choose to own and shoot them is they want. and it's not your place, or mine to decide how much, or how someone else wastes ammo. if they are buying it, and they want to burn up 5000 rounds in less than half an hour, that's their business. not your's, nor mine or anyone elses. but the bigger issue is about supporting all law abiding gun owners. put the shoe on the other foot. what if they were looking to ban some type of firearm that you own, and enjoy shooting, or those you might like to own? would you not want other gun owners, who didn't share your same interests in guns to come to your defense, and say, no, no more banning any type of guns for law abiding gun owners.

i'll stand up and support another gun owners right to their choices in guns and gun accessories, regardless of whether i want it or not. that is the bigger picture that i'm seeing.
 
#12 ·
I do not own any bump fire stock or binary trigger (whatever that is :confused:.) Nor do I have the desire to procure either.
Any infringement is unconstitutional. Society accepted the “ban” on automatic weapons and people found ways to provide similar functionality without violating that law. Now the government wants to outlaw legal alternatives.
McCool. A binary trigger fires one round when you press it, resets, and then fires the next one as you release it. Still one round per manipulation, but two rounds per cycle.

If you want the first bang only, on an AR, the two position safety becomes a 3 position, with semi, safe, and double cycle type settings. Position one, safe. oosition 2, semi, single round, reset, press again to send the next, and position three, semi, "double tap", one on the squeeze, one on the release.

If you send the first one, and don't want to send the next, you switch the safety on, which causes the rifle to not fire on the return stroke, and the trigger to reset.

Neither it or bump fire is a replacement for full on rock and roll, but it is as close as we, the poor broke mortals in this country, can come to a new SF weapon of our own. And honestly, I find the binary trigger much easier to control than bump fire, and full auto, firing on burst settings, or with proper technique, to be the better set up IME.

As to any urge to own one, unless someone wants to talk an ammo company into paying for my habit, honestly, I'll pass. As I posted above, I can think of much better ways to throw away $16 every 5 seconds.
 
#13 ·
i have no desire to squeeze off a couple thousand rounds in few minutes. my wallet isn't thick enough and my reloading equipment isn't fast enough! but i would never begrudge another person that right if that is how they want to spend their money or time on ammo.

i will never own a fully auto firearm. even if they removed the registration, the requirement for a tax stamp and paperwork, and the prices on them dropped to where they weren't much more expensive than their semi-auto counterparts. they still eat a lot of ammo fast, and ammo costs money.

every one of us has different ideas of what we enjoy when we go shooting. for some the thrill of sending lots of rounds downrange really fast is exciting. i have done it in the past and enjoyed the hell out of it. but economically, i can't afford such luxuries.
 
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#14 ·
i have no desire to squeeze off a couple thousand rounds in few minutes. my wallet isn't thick enough and my reloading equipment isn't fast enough! but i would never begrudge another person that right if that is how they want to spend their money or time on ammo.

i will never own a fully auto firearm. even if they removed the registration, the requirement for a tax stamp and paperwork, and the prices on them dropped to where they weren't much more expensive than their semi-auto counterparts. they still eat a lot of ammo fast, and ammo costs money.

every one of us has different ideas of what we enjoy when we go shooting. for some the thrill of sending lots of rounds downrange really fast is exciting. i have done it in the past and enjoyed the hell out of it. but economically, i can't afford such luxuries.
Oh, I can think of two I would want to own off the top of my head. an AC556, and an American 180. And if the registry was done away with, and i could get either one for a couple hundred more than a Mini14, or the semi version of the A180, I would have them in the collection ASAP.

As both are select fire, odds are, most shooting would be in semi, with the AC556 used in 3 round burst from time to time, and every once in a great while, the A180 would be used to run through a third of a brinck of .22LR for $#!+s and giggles.

i just wouldn't use them in full auto, 90% of the time is all. And I would also say to anyone who wanted to try them out, that they need to bring their own ammo.

i'm all for folks getting the chance to play with something fun, but I am not going to pay for their habit. With the exception of a kid who is mature enough for such things, which the A180 would be a good one to exposes them to such things. I was 12 when I first shot one, while we were living in NC, and I was in my 20s, visiting a friend in Vegas, while out there to stand in his wedding party, who's FIL ran a range that rents them, and go to try out some of his personal collection.

The AK was fun, the M16, I had already fired one rpoir, the Mac 10 and Uzi were a blast, but out of all of them, the one I wished I could take home with me was that AC556. I'm just more of a mini person is all.

I have found that, once you have tried select fire weapons, the BFS and BT just isn't the same.
 
#15 ·
The purpose of these types of devices was to simulate "automatic" fire in a semi-auto gun. They were designed to side-step the existing Federal laws. It was considered a range-toy until is was used for serious purposes, and it was not an important battle for the public or the BATF. That changed when a nut used them to simulate automatic fire in a situation where accuracy was not an issue and rapid fire contributed to casualities. Now it is an issue, because no one wants to see a repeat performance.

For those who bought them after Las Vegas, on speculation, I hope they lose their asses on the "investment."
 
#16 ·
The purpose of these types of devices was to simulate "automatic" fire in a semi-auto gun. They were designed to side-step the existing Federal laws. It was considered a range-toy until is was used for serious purposes, and it was not an important battle for the public or the BATF. That changed when a nut used them to simulate automatic fire in a situation where accuracy was not an issue and rapid fire contributed to casualities. Now it is an issue, because no one wants to see a repeat performance.

For those who bought them after Las Vegas, on speculation, I hope they lose their asses on the "investment."
i understand what you're saying, but i have to respectfully disagree.

it comes down to blaming an inanimate object for the actions of the nutcase who used them in criminal manner. we could apply that same logic to any inanimate object if we went down that path.

it also penalizes all the law abiding gun owners who own them just because one crazed lunatic used one. that same logic has been applied to AR style rifles many times in the past because of the actions of few lunatics using them.

and from what i have read and seen, many people have lots of problems with getting the bumpfire stocks to perform like a fully auto firearm. my father can do it, but my brother can't get the hang of it! personally, i have had the opportunity many times to try them out on my father's, or my brother's AR's and never have. i can put rounds down range almost as fast with my box stock AR's with just my trigger finger. and probably with greater accuracy.

and what about the people that already own them? that owned them prior to the Las Vegas shooting spree? should they be penalized just because?
 
#18 ·
If anyone has ever around full auto rifles and fired same more than 3 or 4 times they know a bump fire stock isn't in the same ball park.
Slower rate of fire, when one can actually get off more than 4 or 5 rds

Is totally inaccurate.

Does not even sound the same when firing.

This is just another dance in victims blood by antis not letting any chance to shove more camel in the tent go to waste.
No matter how useless the regulation will be.
 
#20 ·
I'd vote to ban them.
I never thought they had any practical purpose other than to give owners jolly's and to burn up lots of ammo aimlessly.
and sure enough, some nut goes and uses one to kill a lot of people.
society has proven that it isn't mature enough to respect and guard this invention.
call it corporal punishment if you will, but since its not something every family needs to get thru life....make it go away.
if someone wants one? make it class 3 and tax them to high heaven for it.
I think bump fire stocks are a joke at best but banning them will allow open the door for more restrictions. The stocks make it easier but all you need to bump fire is a belt loop. I have a Geissele SD3G in one of my rifles that has a very short reset and light trigger pull. If I do a mag dump it sounds I can shoot at close to FA speeds. That said the rifle has is setup for quick follow up shots on running coyotes. Competition triggers like mine will possibly be affected by this ban for no other reason than they are after market parts.

Keep in mind most bump fire/bianary triggers are often cause the bolt to travel faster than the rifle feeds causing jams etc. I am not a tinfoil wearing nut but I think the use of bumpfire stocks in Vegas is a bunch of horse crap. What happened was done by a person/persons with serious training not a whack job with a plastic toy on his rifle.
 
#22 ·
If Trump gets to replace two or more of the real "losers" on the SCOTUS, that won't happen for a very long time.

A little off topic here, but have you ever considered that the Russians, the Chinese and the diaperheads want an AWB in this country even more than the Clintons? Think about the implications of that for a while.
 
#24 ·
You're right, Dallas.

Although sometimes I look back after six decades of fighting this battle more or less successfully.

Then I look at some effeminate little metrosexual with 5 pounds of bling hanging from his nostrils, ears, lips euebrows and God only knows where else, wearing his Gucci shoes and Bananna Republic attire, and I think, "Hey! I fought for you for 60 years. Now it's your effen turn to fight for yourself and your offspring. (assuming they're not all aborted)
 
#25 ·
You're right, Dallas.

Although sometimes I look back after six decades of fighting this battle more or less successfully.

Then I look at some effeminate little metrosexual with 5 pounds of bling hanging from his nostrils, ears, lips euebrows and God only knows where else, wearing his Gucci shoes and Bananna Republic attire, and I think, "Hey! I fought for you for 60 years. Now it's your effen turn to fight for yourself and your offspring. (assuming they're not all aborted)
You are sounding like our fathers.....
 
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#27 ·
Since Vegas popped up, and it does tie in, as it is the core event, AKA watershed moment" behind this revisit, I'm going to ask rgw following question.

How many more people wouls have benn killed, had that SOB been using aimed fire, rather than bump fire, or spray and pray?

Granted, he injured A LOT of folks, but, given how many shots were fired, 53 dead is a f#@%ing joke. (Not meant to make light of those killed, but many on here could have dropped far more with aimed fire.) So, as strange as it's going to sound, if he did use a BFS or BT, one could look at as having saved lives.

And one can nump fire any semi auto without a BFS. Even a handgun, as long as they have something solid that fits in the trigger guard. A couple screws, a dowel rod, a 12 X 1 inch board, and a table saw, and you can bump fire any semi handgun.

A friend of mine built on foe his G17 last year, and ww both have used it successfully with more than just the Glocks.

So, if they ban such devices, how long until it's time to ban fingers? Some shooters, Jerry
Michulek comes to mind, as he can mag dump his competition.ARs close to BF speeds.
 
#28 ·
about the aimed fire, instead of spray and pray with a bumpfire stock? hmmm...that's an interesting point. i have to think that it is entirely possible, with careful aimed fire of just using semi-auto fire, that it's plausible that there could have been more deaths.

and Jerry Michulek? that guy makes fully auto firearms seem slow! anyone not familiar with someone with a very fast trigger finger, should go to YouTube and search him or Bob Munden out and watch them shoot. and here's the funny thing. they ain't just fast, and i mean like really, really fast, they are extremely accurate as well.
 
#29 · (Edited)
If one watches and listens to the available video there are relatively long periods of no fire between periods of fire, so speed of fire, above a stock high cap semi auto really doesn't play into the Vegas shooting.
It's simply being used as an excuse to blubber about bump stocks to allow a regulation passed by atf about rates of fire.

Police weren't a factor, or a distraction, it was long over before they completed plans etc and actually moved.

Last report I saw was he fired on the hotel guard before firing on the crowd

So no distraction there either.


Had the shooter simply fired steadily , without those breaks, he, or they, could have fired many many more rounds.
 
#31 ·
chain. It is relevant, as, even if all forms of "Speed enhancement" were outlawed, and taken away, the simple fact that there are folks out there that exst, that can both rapidly and accurately fire at such rates. A few are competiton shooters, and they can not be the only ones out there that can do such things.

So, what do we do next? Ban fingers, thumbs, sticks, and belt loops?

Where will the new "ban" fall? If I switch to a 3 pound trigger group in my 10/22, will I have to remove, turn in, and destroy it? Or, what if you start having sensation loss in your fingers, and need to swap out the recoil and main springs in that 1911 you carry, or face a decade in Leavenworth, or on Riker's?

Banning an item, or a part, or the whole d@mn firearm is not the answer, and you know that. If the idea was to have the BATFE reclass all semi aoot rifles, that can accept a detachable magazine, and could be converted, legally or illegally, into a full auto weapon, including .22 Long Rifles, would you be calling for it to happen, or would you be on the phone with your Congressmens' offices?

Especially if it's because ONE @$$hole, who decided to stack up a kill count before ending his worthless life, used a certain type of firearm, with certain "Military" features, and a middle finger to the BATFE toy, to do so. How many on the far Left have you, yourself said you will stand against before now, and now you are agreeing with them?

how many lawful owners of AKs, ARs, and BFS, killed no one today? in the last week? The last month? Hell, the last year, and decade?

IMHO, supprting this, classes one with Pelosi, Shumer, and Cuomo, and you as a firearm owner, and carrier, it makes no sense.
 
#33 ·
The bumpfire thing isn't new. I recall not too many years ago, wide availability of "flats" (unbent sheet metal receivers with holes spotted or pre-drilled) and all parts needed to create a semi or full-auto pos gun). Others offered parts kits for various sub guns. BATF determined that some parts kits were actually FA's even if not put together. Using customer information from the manufacturer, people who bought the kits were contacted and forced to turn them over or face prosecution.

I've shot the bumpfire on one of my AR's. Not my thing. What I fear is coming is regulation of parts and tightening existing law that enables one to build a firearm in your own home for your own use. "Ghost Guns" is already a buzzword in the anti crowd and media. Once the banning starts, look out.

The law of averages is not on our side. Face it. Some Ghost Guns are being created for the criminal market, not hobbiests. They have been used in crimes and the media glommed on to the fact. Although my passion is black powder, I also enjoy assembling AR's and an occasional 1911 from parts. I fear the next issue will be the availability of parts to do this. Not so long ago, "high capacity" mags were outlawed. The price went way up on existing ones. Presently legal, $10 will get you a 30-round mag. Anyway ... don't ever try to predict what congress or state legislatures will do.

I prefer loading from my horn, a patched round ball and a sharp flint. Given the present state of things, if some had their way you all would be reduced to shooting flintlocks.
 
#35 ·
And herein lies the rub with gun regulations.

Watching the posts, one sees folks making the point about how this bump stock regulation will creep to be much worse.
How one bad actor shouldn't wind up penalizing every one with a knee jerk regulation.


The same argument that others of us make about all gun control.

That allowing one gun regulation always leads to another gun regulation.

Odd how inconsistent things become when one fears their pet ox may be the next to get gored.
 
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