mid range rifle build? ar 10 or bolt rifle 6.5 556???

Discussion in 'General Rifle Discussion' started by combateffective4, Aug 29, 2013.

  1. combateffective4

    combateffective4 New Member

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    hey guys i wana build a mid range rifle. i would love to be able to reach out as far as possible (maybe 300-800 yds) and realise it takes skill to go out farther and would like to learn these skills.
    i was thinking to build a ar 10 or a ar 15 varient maybe a 6.5 or 762
    im new to all these rounds and dont really know how far each can reach.
    i wouldnt mind buying a semi auto rifle.
    My price range for buying a rifle would be around 700$
    i know that probably leaves me around a bolt action but what all do you reccomend im looking for something very accurate.

    if i build this rifle i can spend more over time more then the 700$

    whats advantage of 6.5 or 308??
    how far can a 556 go out of a 18 or 20 in barrel

    ive always wanted a SCAR
    should i just save the money?
     
  2. combateffective4

    combateffective4 New Member

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    whats the least 338 expensive i can buy?
     

  3. JonM

    JonM Moderator

    the issue with anything over 30-06 is the price of ammo. even reloading most of the big calibers doesnt make it terribly affordable.

    i would recomend a 308 or 5.56/223 to learn with. it will allow you to buy more ammo to shoot or more components to reload.

    difficulty in shooting at distance increases exponentially with the further out you go. it isnt like shooting at 800 yards is 8 times as hard as 100 its more like 800 times as hard. working your way up and getting tot he point of shooting CONSISTANTLY moa at each 100 yard graduation is the goal you should set for yourself.

    to be a good shooter your really should look at getting into loading your own as the only factory ammo that comes close to consistant results shot for shot is something like black hills match. factory ammo cannot compete with someone who is taking their time at making quality ammunition with good components.

    anyway i would recomend picking a nice AR15 maybe from rock river, known for accuracy in off the shelf ar15's, and learn to shoot that. they are good to about 600 yards before you need a bigger stick. couple years from now when you have mastered that then think about something else. while your shooting and loading save a little each month for your next rifle for when your ready for that next step.

    once you have the basics down then you can think about a big thumper as you will have a much larger base of experience, the tools needed in loading gear, and the knowledge to put it to good use.
     
  4. Yunus

    Yunus New Member

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    Jon is correct in everything he said.

    While semi does not mean inaccurate it is generally going to be less accurate than an equivalent bolt action rifle. Extreme accuracy does not come cheap and that includes the rifle and scope as well as the ammo, unless you load your own but that seems like a big step from where you are now.

    I suggest a .308 bolt action, personally the Howa 1500 is my favorite and it's as accurate as your going to find for the price. $700 is a tight budget for a rifle and scope for an 800 yard gun.
     
  5. steadyshot

    steadyshot New Member

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    You are going to have a hard time finding a rifle and decent glass for $700. If you plan on going long distance, you will probably be spending a bit more....
     
  6. dteed4094

    dteed4094 New Member

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    Start with $500 and add about $2 a yard to get a consistant, accurate bolt action, but the gun is never better than the gunner.
     
  7. Txhillbilly

    Txhillbilly Active Member

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    You could possibly find a good used rifle for $700 or a little less in a bolt action.
    I have always shot .308 caliber rifles at long range 308-30/06-300 WM,and they work great with the right bullets/loads. This year I started shooting the 6.5mm calibers,260 Remington-6.5 Creedmoor,and I haven't shot any of my .308 caliber rifles since.
    The 6.5mm bullets-Berger 140 gr VLD's have almost identical trajectories at 1000 yards as a 300 WM with 1/3 of the recoil,and almost 1/2 the powder charge.

    You can build a very good shooting rifle off a Savage 308 family action for around $1k minus optics,but that's about as cheap as your going to get for a decent rifle with a good aftermarket stock,and a decent aftermarket barrel.
    As long as the action is for any of the 308 cartridge family,the only change would be the barrel/premium barrel lug/and a trued barrel nut.
    There are many calibers that could be used with these actions.

    There are some decent AR10's out there,but your not going to find one that will be in your price range. I paid over $1k for my DPMS LR-260,then added a good trigger,buttstock,and optics. It'll go well north of $2k fast in the AR10 game,and I consider the DPMS an entry grade AR10.

    I built my 6.5 Creedmoor using a brand new Savage Varmint action,I still haven't bought the Manners stock for it,nor the Nightforce NSX scope. When those two items are added to it,I'll have over $3k in that rifle. It isn't cheap building a great shooting rifle. Presently,I'm using the Choate tactical stock and Sightron SIII scope from my 308 on it,but this thing shoots outstanding so far.
     
  8. DeltaF

    DeltaF New Member

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    A .556 AR-15 is marginal at 1000 yards. I've never seen it done in person but was told that it is possible. You would need to plan on a high twist match barrel and a Wylde chamber. You probably will have to get neck deep into reloading your own rounds as well or pay out the nose for some expensive match rounds. You're looking at more than $700 total though.

    There are others with much more experience in this area than I. But if I were in your shoes I would try starting out with a bone stock used rock river arms AR-15 and upgrading the entire upper and barrel to something with a Wylde chamber later when the money looks better.

    This would be a comparatively inexpensive option for a semi that would be easy to upgrade to what you want. You could start working on your technique right away and you'd have a very nice entry-level semi to play with.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2013
  9. JonM

    JonM Moderator

    i believe all rra rifles come with wylde chambers and are wilson barrels. wilson barrels (not wilson combat) are right up there with white oak and krieger and other top end makers. switching out a rra barrel your only moving sideways in quality.
     
  10. DeltaF

    DeltaF New Member

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    I had read that RRA all came with Wylde chambers but mine was listed as ".556 NATO chamber" I was under the impression that meant a mil-spec chamber not Wylde. Thanks for clarifying that for me. The bone stock RRA comes with a 16" 1 in 9 chrome moly barrel. For long distance I thought you needed a 1 in 7 or 1 in 8 and at least 18". Something like the RRA R3 fluted steel competition barrel.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2013
  11. JonM

    JonM Moderator

    the base models might be. not 100% but for the op's need i would opt for the wilson models.

    twist rates kinda determine what bullets work best. any bullet 55-75 grain will get out to 600yards all of them go subsonic around the 700-800 mark depending on barrel and bullet combo. 14.5 barrels drop subsonic around the 600 mark.

    20" is the ideal length for the 556/223 giving the best combo of balance and range. the longer 24" guns will reach just a scootch further but not enough to make any real diff for the extra weight heat and clumsiness.
     
  12. DeltaF

    DeltaF New Member

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    The higher twist rate will stabilize the 75-90 grain competition rounds that actually go out to 1000 yards. 1 in 9 won't do it. 1 in 9 won't even stabilize the long 63 grain M856 (tracer) rounds past 100 yards. (Not that you would want to shoot tracers in a non chrome barrel...)
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2013
  13. Txhillbilly

    Txhillbilly Active Member

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    A 1-9 twist will stabilize a 75 gr bullet all day long. I shoot the 75 gr BTHP match and 75 gr A-Max bullets out of my 1-9 twist Savage 12 FLVSS all the time.
    I don't know where you get your info,but you are wrong.
     
  14. seancslaughter

    seancslaughter New Member

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    Buy an ar-15 and if you still want more distance save for an upper with longer range capabilities like a 20 inch 6.5 Grendel from what I've seen on the net it's a round capable of 1000 meter hits
     
  15. DeltaF

    DeltaF New Member

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    Argue with their professional match shooters all day if you like, please note I said out to 1000 yards and 75-90 grains. I have seen M856s actually begin veering in mid air after somewhere around 100 yards being fired from a 16" 1 in 9 barrel.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 30, 2013
  16. JonM

    JonM Moderator

    The purpose of a tracer isn't to hit pin point targets its to direct fire when used in a rifle. Least that's what we used em for.

    The phosphor component makes the round unstable in flight not so much the twist rate. As it burns it shifts balance in the bullet and things go nuts down range.

    Personally I'll never put a tracer in any rifle I own chromed or not. I like my barrels :D

    My rra nm ar15a2 is 1-8 my krieger precision build is a 1-8.8. I haven't found much they don't like other than 55grn airpulls. But that's got more to do with shtty surplus bullets with visibly off center cores....

    Quality of the bullet has more to do with consistant accuracy than anything else.

    Supposedly 16" 1-7 won't shoot 55grain well . My bcm is a moa shooter with a 16" barrel at 300 yards using quality 55grain bullets and consistant powder charges.

    Each gun is different and need handloads worked up to get the absolute best results. I've seen that differences in ammo when dealing with factory crap is pretty huge even from stuff that's claimed to be "match" grade.

    The problem I dont think lies with the twist rate being bad necessarily, but more the quality of the barrel to start with. Pretty much most 1-9 barrels aren't any great shakes and are aimed for the budget market because they perform decent enough with a very wide range of factory ammo. Not what I would consider target grade. More than good enough for the average guy trying to get an ar15 at a blue light special.

    My wife had a dpms 1-9 16" it was a consistant 5" at 300yards with 75grain bullets. That's extremely good for a low end budget gun.
     
  17. DeltaF

    DeltaF New Member

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    My post was not about accuracy at 300 yards. It was about accuracy at 1000. It was not about accuracy out of a 16 inch barrel. It was about accuracy out of a 18-20 inch barrel. It was not about the purpose of tracers either. I mentioned tracers because they are a big part of the reason the military settled on the 1:7 twist barrel for shots in 556 out past 800 meters. I would agree with you that a 1:9 barrel is just fine for shooting inside of 500meters. In fact I'd prefer 1:9 for 300 yards and closer because it won't overspin the lighter rounds so you can pretty much shoot whatever you want through it.

    But the OP asked about maximum range on a .556 with an 18-20 inch barrel. Maximum range is not 300 yards. Maximum range is reaching out to just beyond 1000 meters and a big part of the decision the military made to implement faster twists in their barrels involved the longer heavier rounds used to reach out to that range. It takes a heavy grain bullet and ideally a faster twisted barrel to reach out that far with longer bullets and still have good MOA.

    I'm not talking about the M193 tracer rounds either.

    I'll back up my statements with direct quotes.

    http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/hist_m855.html


    For long distance shooting:

    http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/perf_whattwist.html


    These are tracer rounds I was talking about:

    http://www.armystudyguide.com/conte..._topics/m16a2/ammunition-types-and-char.shtml

    Note: M16A1 is a 1:12 barrel. But I have fired these tracers out of a 1:9 barrel and watched them begin to veer significantly after 100 yards. The rounds were designed to be stable out to 800meters in spite of the phosphor compound. Not that you would buy a rifle so you can shoot tracers. Just listing the reason that we have faster twist barrels available for .556 in the first place.

    Again, inside of 300 yards I like my 1:9 inch twist barrel way better. But the OP did not ask about the best barrel for inside of 300 yards. The OP specifically asked about maximum range with .556 out of a 18-20" barrel. Maximum range is just outside of 1000 yards. It needs heavier grain bullets to reach that far accurately. Heavier grain bullets are better stabilized by higher twist barrels. This is not to say that it cannot be accomplished under any circumstances with a 1:9 twist. But that is not what is normally used in long distance matches.

    This is all I have to say about the barrel twist issue on this thread. I am not going to debate it anymore. These are the facts as given by people who are much smarter than I am and much better marksmen than I am.

    Eventually I would like to put a 1:8 fluted steel 18" wilson barrel on my RRA LAR-15 and try my luck out to 1000 yards. When I do I will be sure to compare the difference between that barrel and my current 1:9 moly chrome 16" wilson barrel at those ranges and maybe I'll prove myself and the experts wrong and find out that I've wasted my money. But I hope not.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2013
  18. jpattersonnh

    jpattersonnh New Member

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    If one was to buy a DCM, all tricked out out of the box, 1000 yards is stupid w/ a .223/5.56. They are 700 yard HP rifles at best.
    I'm not buying your internet experience, see above.
    Agreed! Still not a 1000 yard round!
     
  19. DeltaF

    DeltaF New Member

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    [ame]http://youtu.be/YqUxvihK8B0[/ame]

    1250 yards with Tika .223

    Lots of videos out there of folks shooting with 223 and/or 556 from 800-1000 yards and beyond.

    I intend to try it once I upgrade my rifle.

    I will post videos here when I do, even if its a year or two from now. Note:I said marginal performance not 1 MOA. Lots of people doing it with marginal results. Some results on vids look pretty good to me. All look fun to try. If its stupid to you fine, but it looks like a fun day at the range to me. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

    It's fine to poke fun of someone's "Internet experience" but the person who told me that 556 was marginal at 1000 yards (but could be done) was a personal friend who is a long range shooter on a Law Enforcement SWAT team. He doesn't have to worry about perfect shots at 1000 yards with 556 because he shoots a Barrett .50 at that range. But he said from his experience 556 was fun to try at 1000 yards and way cheaper to play with. He is the guy I direct most if not all of my firearms questions to. He was one of my firearms instructors in the police academy and is very knowledgable and a very good shooter. Neither of us is a competition shooter so maybe you have a different understanding of "marginal" than we do...

    I don't list him as a source on these forums because he does not have any published works so its easy for someone to roll their eyes and say "prove it." I listed the ammo oracle guys at AR15.com as my source because most of what they have published lines up with what I was taught.

    Also because they're generally very well known on firearms forums and a lot of people cite their "ammo oracle" with total confidence. But I guess you've got better information than I do. ;-) :shrug: We can all only work with what we've got!
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2013