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your overall stance on gun control laws


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Old 08-15-2012, 12:15 AM   #501
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You say this all in a very matter-of-fact way with absolutely no condemnation of the government murderers. It's fine if you agree the government thugs were dead wrong in how they did what they set out to do (both in Waco and Ruby Ridge), but that's what this thread, more or less, is dealing with. When government thugs are way out of bounds, ultimately you're in for a fight. Might be now, might be later. But to forgive them or ignore their actions is not an option.
I have said that many times. The fact it doesn't get listened to, or gets skipped over in some half baked attempt to defend Koresh, along with his actions, is not my concern.

It doesn't matter if I condemn what the government did or didn't do at Waco. It doesn't matter because Koresh had the power to end it in a non violent fashion, but chose not to. Thereby advancing the standoff until it reached the conclusion it did. Right or wrong.

Perhaps Koresh was betting the government wouldn't make a move with 20 odd children inside. Perhaps he thought they would give in to his demands, (whatever they were). Or perhaps he was just plain stupid, nuts, or crazy. None of it matters because they pleaded with him for 51 days to come out and he didn't, or else wouldn't.

If he had, no one would have been killed. That is a fact. All this was when you break it all down, was another suicide by cop. The only difference here is 75 people let one idiot make their decision for them.
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Old 08-15-2012, 12:24 AM   #502
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Originally Posted by PrimePorkchop View Post
If you think it's okay for the Government to march into your house and take your guns, or any other possession for that matter, then all the power to you.
Show me where in this thread I ever said that.
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Old 08-15-2012, 12:34 AM   #503
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Koresh was shot while opening the door per the instructions of the gov't goons. He was unarmed. What incentive does that provide anyone inside from taking their chances trying to surrender?
Spare me. This doesn't paint such a rosy picture of Koresh, his bunch, and what happened as you do. So based on that I'm sure you'll either condemn it, or disbelieve it.

http://www.culteducation.com/waco.html
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Old 08-15-2012, 12:44 AM   #504
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I have said that many times. The fact it doesn't get listened to, or gets skipped over in some half baked attempt to defend Koresh, along with his actions, is not my concern.

It doesn't matter if I condemn what the government did or didn't do at Waco. It doesn't matter because Koresh had the power to end it in a non violent fashion, but chose not to. Thereby advancing the standoff until it reached the conclusion it did. Right or wrong.

Perhaps Koresh was betting the government wouldn't make a move with 20 odd children inside. Perhaps he thought they would give in to his demands, (whatever they were). Or perhaps he was just plain stupid, nuts, or crazy. None of it matters because they pleaded with him for 51 days to come out and he didn't, or else wouldn't.

If he had, no one would have been killed. That is a fact. All this was when you break it all down, was another suicide by cop. The only difference here is 75 people let one idiot make their decision for them.
I guess I'm left wondering if you believe the government thugs could have and should have de-escalated the situation specifically to avoid bloodshed. What you've written so far reads like a manual for dealing with venomous snakes: don't do this, or else that will happen. You condemn Koresh for being a dumb-ass: he should have known not to poke that rattler and he predictably got killed. The blame lies squarely with Koresh because he could have made a different choice and maybe those people would be alive today, but no way, no how does blame fall on the shoulders of the government murderers. (That's total crap, IMO.)

One big difference between a rattler and government is a rattler would rather avoid a confrontation, where the government goes looking for one. So the analogy doesn't hold.

If the government is aggressive, brutal, predictable and ruthless, where does that leave us? Do we sit back in our lawn chairs sipping cheap box wine while we watch what happened to someone else in a far-off city and hope something like that never happens to us? What's wrong with that ugly picture?

We vote for the right people, petition politicians, write letters to the paper, rally, make phone calls, send emails, etc., etc. and it all falls on deaf ears because we're not loud enough. Does the apathy of the majority assuage the government of its guilt? No, not at all.

And the icing on the cake is that government's reason for existence is specifically to protect and guard our rights, the most fundamental of which is our right to live.

So again, where does this leave us? In light of all this, what's your take on how to deal with a government that selectively eliminates certain individuals' rights?

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Old 08-15-2012, 12:48 AM   #505
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Spare me. This doesn't paint such a rosy picture of Koresh, his bunch, and what happened as you do. So based on that I'm sure you'll either condemn it, or disbelieve it.

http://www.culteducation.com/waco.html
No, I won't go into the lurid details of the Waco massacre because it's too involved and lengthy and inappropriate for this thread. Feel free to start up another thread if you want to go into it.
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Old 08-15-2012, 01:01 AM   #506
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Show me where in this thread I ever said that.
Gladly.

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What will you do? They want your gold, guns, beans or silver? What will you do? Give or shoot? It's the only 2 options on the table at that point. If you shoot, you'll be shot dead on the spot. You'll be killed because they will know well in advance what they may be up against. They'll be equipped for it. You won't be. So faced with that, if your choice is to shoot, you'll be committing suicide. That's not "hyperbole" or whatever silly name you want to tag it with. It's suicide, pure and simple. Will you commit it? If your answer is yes, be sure to make up your headstone well in advance. That way they'll "remember you".


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The only difference here is 75 people let one idiot make their decision for them.
You're exactly right. We FINALLY agree on something!!




75 of these idiots

your overall stance on gun control laws - Legal and Activism

took commands from this one idiot

your overall stance on gun control laws - Legal and Activism

and murdered dozens of innocent women and children. For no reason. What so ever.
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Old 08-15-2012, 01:23 AM   #507
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Originally Posted by KalashnikovJosh

11 page thread and people are still missing the point.

The Second Amendment is not an entitlement for those who government deems are "law abiding".

Its a restriction on the government that it shall not infringe on a preexisting inalienable right of the people to keep and bear arms.

The government,if it were behaving legitimately,does not get to enact "gun laws",based on the clear definition of the word "infringe" and that they "shall not" do so.
I agree and I should have been explicitly clear with my comments. The 2A does not grant permission. It enumerates our divine rights as given to us by our creator.

Unfortunately, poor decisions have been made over time and we've seen gradual encroachment of our rights. There's no other way to explain the "sporting" test and its impact on imports.
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Old 08-15-2012, 01:30 AM   #508
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Billt,I might have asked you before,but I just have to ask again:

What branch of the government do you work for?
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Old 08-15-2012, 01:34 AM   #509
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if memory serves me, the government and all it's politicians, all it's agencies and employees, all LE agencies from small towns to the big boys in Washington DC, are bought and paid for with our tax dollars. their salaries, their vehicles, their fancy firearms and equipment, is paid for with American tax dollars. so shouldn't their jobs be to ensure and protect our rights and not trample them? seems that in the private sector, the employer gets to make the rules that the employees have to abide by. why is the case that the reverse is true when we deal with the government? after all they do work for us through our tax dollars, and in a sense are suppose to be working for us? personally think it's high time they need to be reminded that they work for us and not the opposite! i think it's time for some accountability and for some of them to seek other career fields. i think it's time for those who do have authority and either abuse it or disregard the rights of the citizens or commits an illegal act to be held to the same standards as any other person. personally i think they should be held to higher standards and when they do wrong need to be punished more severely. we need to start at the local levels, get involved with our city and town governments, and send the message loud and clear, that they work for us and as their employer, we the tax payer are not going to abide with anymore of any wrongdoing and not being held accountable for their actions. the message will be heard loud and clear when we the American citizens demand accountability and more and more of these people who try to abuse the authority that we give them, are standing in the unemployment line and have to seek a career change.
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Old 08-15-2012, 01:41 AM   #510
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Axxe,the problem began when they were able to graft for themselves the almost limitless bounty of an income tax coupled with credit from the federal reserve- all the doings of one particular early 20th century progressive socialist administration: that of Woodrow Wilson.

This nation was founded with neither an income tax nor a central bank.

We got both under the Wilson administration.

Without such financial largess provided by such,it would be highly unlikely they could afford the illegitimate police state they've built for themselves.

As well,as I often like to point out in such conversations,the police powers of the federal government do not include the objectives of the myriad and sundry Alphabet Soup Squads they have today.

"Resolved, That the Constitution of the United States, having delegated to Congress a power to punish treason, counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States, piracies, and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations, and no other crimes, whatsoever........."
-Thomas Jefferson,Kentucky Resolutions of 1798

The collecting of taxes and the use of the central bank to finance these illegitimate agencies are all acts of tyranny in and of themselves.

Everyone employed by these agencies would,of course,refuse to see things in such a light because it means that their income -and often their championed life's work- are all illegitimate.
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