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Old 07-21-2014, 05:18 AM   #61
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There is a huge difference between carrying and brandishing. Nobody here said it was ok to brandish. Changing words is not the way to debate honestly. That's what libs do and I know you aren't a lib because I've pushed the like button on your posts too many times for that.
Change it to exposing with unclear intent. The cops did their job. I've seen such video provocations before. In this country the cops are so bad, mucking with them is a sport.
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Old 07-21-2014, 05:54 AM   #62
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It's not reasonable doc, it's paranoia. When some nut drives his car through a play ground, do the police start stopping everybody with a car? I mean what the hell, everybody drives down the street in their cars and way more people are killed by cars than by guns. Cars aren't even a constitutional right. Look how many people are stabbed every year but we don't hear about back ground checks to buy a knife. You don't hear about knife registrations. No body thinks it would be a good idea to store their kitchen knives in a knife safe. If some wacko goes nuts with his AK would you rather have your pocket 380 or your AR? It happens, it just happened with that nasty bank robbery. You wouldn't bring a knife to a gun fight so why bring a pistol to a rifle fight. So far none of you guys that think it isn't reasonable to carry a long gun hasn't given any reason other than it might scare or piss off a liberal. I'm sorry but making a liberal wet himself isn't a good enough reason to violate any ones constitutional rights.
And I'm not saying he doesn't have the right to carry it. The sad reality is that a few nut jobs have made people scared. Walking near areas where people gather with an exposed long gun may make people nervous. Nervous folks who don't carry call cops. Being aware of time, place and current events is also a part of situational awareness.

Anyone choosing to carry a rifle openly should be aware of the risks. They may still exercise their right. It doesn't change the inconvenient fact that society today's is not as accepting. Not saying it is right, not saying I agree or like it. Just stating the observation of facts.

I've carried a rifle on foot a ways. But it was cased. No one cared.

As a person who carries. If I saw someone walking down the street with a rifle, I'm going to pay attention.
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Old 07-21-2014, 11:34 AM   #63
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The way I understand it it that if the cops get a complaint about something they HAVE to go check it out. And when they did show up, they were pretty nice to that guy. So HE'S the one who escalated this whole thing.

I still have not gotten any opinions on my earlier question; at what point do the cops have every right to see your ID?Where is DeltaF? He always has some good insight into these things. Is he still around?

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Old 07-21-2014, 12:10 PM   #64
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I still have not gotten any opinions on my earlier question; at what point do the cops have every right to see your ID?
Probable cause is the key to that answer but its become a shaky bridge too many LEO's cross without actual cause in my book. Too many people, too few LEO's is the biggest problem, they cant know their beat or the people that live there when they are covering 50 city blocks or 100 square miles of non city turf, your probably gonna be deemed an unknown risk to them even if your not really a risk to anyone.

Im pretty sure Im never going to try to make my point against a LEO face to face. They dont make the laws and they are rightfully worried about living through their shift more than they are concerned about your specific rights at any given moment.
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Old 07-21-2014, 01:15 PM   #65
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DeltaF was on last week. Maybe he will return soon.


No offense and none taken

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Old 07-21-2014, 02:38 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by WebleyFosbery38 View Post
Probable cause is the key to that answer but its become a shaky bridge too many LEO's cross without actual cause in my book. Too many people, too few LEO's is the biggest problem, they cant know their beat or the people that live there when they are covering 50 city blocks or 100 square miles of non city turf, your probably gonna be deemed an unknown risk to them even if your not really a risk to anyone.

Im pretty sure Im never going to try to make my point against a LEO face to face. They dont make the laws and they are rightfully worried about living through their shift more than they are concerned about your specific rights at any given moment.
i agree. in all honesty and fairness, LEO's just want to get through their day like anyone else and go home to their families.

if, (big IF here) a LEO violates, or you felt your rights are being violated, the time and place to argue that issue is not face to face with that officer. doing so, (again, big IF your rights are being violated) can escalate the situation to the point you are no longer in the right and his actions are justified.

the time and place to argue the issue is with a lawyer and his superiors. if, (again big IF) an LEO steps beyond his legal authority or violates your rights, you need to file a complaint with his superiors. if an officer is abusing his authority, or violating people's rights, the only way they know of this is if people file complaints against him. if complaints of his actions are coming from sevral sources, they will investigate these claims and if they are true, most likely he will end up fired.
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Old 07-21-2014, 03:00 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by WebleyFosbery38 View Post
Probable cause is the key to that answer but its become a shaky bridge too many LEO's cross without actual cause in my book.

Too many people, too few LEO's is the biggest problem, they cant know their beat or the people that live there when they are covering 50 city blocks or 100 square miles of non city turf,

BINGO!

your probably gonna be deemed an unknown risk to them even if your not really a risk to anyone.

Im pretty sure Im never going to try to make my point against a LEO face to face. They dont make the laws and they are rightfully worried about living through their shift more than they are concerned about your specific rights at any given moment.

Sometimes there is a very fine line between "reasonable suspicion" and "probable cause."

An LEO with any common sense will always take the side of caution and safety.
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Old 07-21-2014, 03:34 PM   #68
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From Terry v. Ohio, Supreme Court - June 10, 1967:

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The Fourth Amendment provides that "the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated. . . ." This inestimable right of [p9] personal security belongs as much to the citizen on the streets of our cities as to the homeowner closeted in his study to dispose of his secret affairs. For as this Court has always recognized,

No right is held more sacred, or is more carefully guarded, by the common law than the right of every individual to the possession and control of his own person, free from all restraint or interference of others, unless by clear and unquestionable authority of law.
This notion that "there is a law" against the mere presence of a gun being all that is necessary to create "reasonable articulable suspicion" (RAS) was settled by the above SCOTUS ruling, and whether OC'ed or CC'ed, mere presence/possession of a gun does not reach that threshold as long as the carrier is in a place where legal to carry in the manner he is carrying. The ruling said that when an officer makes a Terry Stop, the officer must have a reasonable suspicion that the person has committed a crime, is about to commit a crime, or is committing a crime. In WA State, where this incident happened, OC is not only legal as regards both long arms and handguns, but it is nearly as ubiquitous as in AZ where it has been practiced with zero interruptions by law or by societal "norms" since Statehood.

In short, the only "jerks" or law-breakers in the subject-video are those wearing uniforms and badges.

In order for one to be a true law-enforcement "supporter," they must first be a supporter of the law. If you support the actions of the cops in the subject-video, you support lawlessness by Vancouver, WA cops. There is no "in-between." Cops who act outside the law are law-breakers, not law-enforcers. This was not a valid Terry Stop by any legal definition, and seizing the citizen's personal property (his phone) and keeping it hidden for a year preventing him from preparing his defense is an unconscionable violation of law under our Constitution. Anyone standing up for these lawless thugs should be ashamed of themselves. This is nothing short of fascism on display.

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ETA:

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Originally Posted by locutus View Post
An LEO with any common sense will always take the side of caution and safety.
While their sworn duty is to the Constitution and protecting the citizens' God-given rights. Who cares what their rationale is about safety etc. if what they're rationalizing is lawlessness?
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Last edited by CzarChasm; 07-21-2014 at 03:39 PM. Reason: Added content.
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Old 07-21-2014, 04:16 PM   #69
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Change it to exposing with unclear intent. The cops did their job. I've seen such video provocations before. In this country the cops are so bad, mucking with them is a sport.
No they did not. If they had released him with out charging him they would have done their job. They WAY they over reacted in the initial contact tainted the entire contact. I have been directly involved in many contacts similar to this one and had ZERO problems even with activists like this guy.
I make this observation with over 40 years of STREET LE experience to base it on. This total over reaction by LEO's to the mere sight of a 'gun' is the problem.
Activists will continue to 'test' the government/LE this way and as long as LE miss handle it like this the worse it will get.
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Old 07-21-2014, 05:15 PM   #70
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Default I want to paint some scenarios - let you decide

Not looking to argue, just being realistic.

If the police officers went up to this man and he was carrying nothing, just wanking along, and demanded ID, they would be way outside the box and violating his rights.

In the current scenario, they went overboard and really set him up, I grant that.

But lets take a scenario some would have liked to see.

He is walking in front of a building with a rifle. His car is parked there. Police roll up.

What are you doing ?
I am expressing my second amendment rights.
Do you have any id ?
I don't have to show you my id.
Where are you going ?
I don't have to tell you.
Okay, have a nice day.

The police drive off. The man now enters the building and begins shooting the people inside where he has been laid off from that company.

All of this later comes to light. What happens to the LEO's? Do you think it will all be just a case of "they did their job right ?". Hell no...those folks are going to get barbecued, skinned and spit out of a meat grinder.

In fact, it will most likely lead to new laws that WILL allow greater latitude on search and questions.

What no one seems to understand is that there is a utopian view of rights and the real world cases. Our friends the LEO's have no way of knowing if you are good old citizen exercising your rights or Joe Nutjob. Why would anyone want to make it difficult for them ?

Showing your id is a rational CHOICE. It is a choice, no one disputes that, but if we spend our lives making everyone else's life harder, public outcry will ensure you lose some of that ability.

The lion is laying passively in the cage, but if you poke him in the nose every time he yawns, that yawn may just turn into a bite.

Nuff said.

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