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Old 01-07-2013, 11:24 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by NotMormon View Post
My brother was in the army for ten years and there is no way in hell I will be around him and "weapons" at the same time. You cant fix or train stupid!
And I've seen how non infantry soldiers shoot...lol when they don't know what the elevation and windage knob do then they have no say about the "weapon"..
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Old 01-07-2013, 12:36 PM   #42
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The way I see it, the problem is many people don't take any personal responsability anymore. That's why we see rules and disclaimers in owners manual. The best thing you can do is offer some training/advice if you see them doing something wrong. If they are asking the LGS, they are already getting help from someone they trust (maybeay).

Also, gload to see that I am not the only one to think a dd214 is not the answer. In over seven years of active duty, I made it to the range twice. Can you say POG? Also, I think the guys that rocked out in bootcamp got a dd214, but didn't even make it to the range.

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Old 01-07-2013, 01:25 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by 70cuda383

I wasn't talking about a marksman/shooting performance test. there's a difference in being a marksman and having safe weapons handling skills. keeping your finger off the trigger, treating every weapon like it's loaded, and being smart/responsible around a weapon is different than being able to hit a quarter at 50 yards with a handgun.

I agree with your argument on "letting the government decide what is actually safe" however, in Ohio, the government does NOT make that decision. the law for a CCW permit reads as defaulting to the NRA for an appropriate safety training class to be able to obtain your permit, or simply supply a DD214 or other paperwork that shows you've been in the military, which then equates to having had firearms training. the Ohio law does not actually specify what they mean by "safety".

Anyway, my thought process: when reading various threads and subforums on this website, it becomes apparent that MANY of the members participating in this forum believe that there are a LOT of "idiot gun owners" out there who have no business handling a loaded firearm because of the risk they put themselves and others at, even if they are law abiding citizens. the fear of "idiot gun nuts" at a gun show who would start popping off rounds, or the "idiot gun nuts" who give "law abiding gun owners a bad name" or the "idiot gun nuts" who....

In a time like this when it seems that we will soon be put into a polarizing debate on gun control, one would think that "idiot gun owners" might be a hindrance to ALL gun owners. We talk about how law abiding gun owners are responsible with their guns, don't hurt people with their guns, and that gun control hurts us because of the actions of criminals. wouldn't we then want all gun owners to ACTUALLY be safe, responsible, mature gun owners?

I don't know that I believe we need a new restriction, because like most of you, I agree, we should be able to walk in, give the man our money, and walk out with a gun. One could argue that there's nothing in the 2nd amendment about criminals being barred from gun ownership, yet we seem to agree that it's ok to prevent someone who's beat their wife, dealt drugs, raped, murdered ,etc .from buying a gun, and you could ALSO argue that the 2nd amendment DOES say "well regulated militia" which implies some sort of training.

Also, what got me thinking about this, was my trip to the LGS yesterday. while waiting for my turn at the counter ("take a number/now serving" system) and then while waiting for the NICS check, I overheard a LOT of "dumb questions" being asked--which hey, at least they were asking them, but I also witnessed lots of those "idiot gun nuts" that were acting like they'd never been around guns before, and wanted to buy one because it was "cool" I couldn't help but shake my head as I thought "these are the kind of people that are representing gun owners? they're giving us a bad name!"

--of course, I don't know that any kind of mandatory training class would fix that either.
My take? Not asked for, but.

Was at range yesterday w my para 1911. Guy in next stall had three. He had two people w him. They both handled weapons well enough . The guy stated his wife cc a .45 and was wanting a 1911, and that his friend wants 1911 too. He asked if they could try my para. I said sure.

He loaded my magazine. Woman stepped up, chambered, set it down or ready fire no safety on. She started talking to him , picked it up, ready fire, started looking at it w finger on trigger. I immediately reminded her it was ready fire safety off, she apologized, fired off, put it down.

That scared me enough. The friend picked it up. She had emptied mag, released slide, put in mag, so chamber empty, but hammer back, safety off when she laid it down. Next guy picked it up, finger on trigger, and proceeded to look gun over w finger on trig. made me freak out a bit. Told him put it down and get finger off trigger.

He apologizes and says has never been to a range and was trying 1911s because he is going to buy one.

Then it is revealed both individuals are very new to guns.

Maybe I'm just paranoid, but I think whoever was training them would have told them the basics prior to ever putting a weapon in their hands, and I'm betting he did as his responses were similar to mine. I'm also betting the two individuals that were brand new to guns lacked the proper respect for what they can do.
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Old 01-07-2013, 02:05 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by HOSSFLY View Post
If you going to quote learn to do it right & don't butcher up cut & paste jobs -
Thats NOT a quote from me!-
My apologies, my error.

You are correct, but I did not do that on purpose, there are damn gremlins in
the code!!! Look back at my post #33. I connot tell you what happened; or
how it got miss labelled. Got me...
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Old 01-07-2013, 02:08 PM   #45
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What the OP was talking about is why I think we need classes and permits for CCW. Sorry, I'll never be for people carrying a weapon in public without some minimal instruction and training. Just some of the horror stories I have heard from the classes is enough to make me think that CHL's need to persist. The classes are basic and the cost is not cheap but attainable by most any income level with a little planning.

That said, if you want to own a gun and plan on doing nothing more than transporting it between home and the range, assuming it ever makes it to the range, no restrictions.

There will always be idiot gun owners just like there are idiot drivers. An idiot gun owner will watch a video, take a class, whatever it takes to go home with their gun and then proceed to be an idiot. Hell, this is true in the case of concealed carry as well, but since they are buying a gun that will largely be for home defense and are only a risk to themselves and their families I have no interest in what they do with it. Just keep it away from me and mine.

On the flip side of that, I do try to help newbies as much as possible. Some people don't want to learn and some people just want to figure it out on their own. I help where I can, I try not to judge their purchase choices, and for the most part I let people go about their merry way.

Just remember that the answer of gun control advocates is to keep introducing restrictions until owning a gun is too onerous for the average American. Why help that along?

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Old 01-07-2013, 02:12 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by jebsca View Post
The way I see it, the problem is many people don't take any personal responsability anymore.
DING!!!
DING!!!
DING!!!
DING!!!
DING!!!

We have a WINNER!!!

Absolutely!
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Old 01-07-2013, 02:38 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by shade View Post
my first quote, click on the > next to hossfly name
and see where it takes you...

this is not hossfly's quote but the 'puter thinks it was, maybe the 'puter was just tired last night, i was...

Now do the same here, very strange. The correct
quote is from hockalouis. Sorry for the confusion.




Just call you rifle or weapon a gun or firearm in front of your di or company
commander in bootcamp. I dare you to... I did once, and only once...

You cannot undo that kind of training.
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Old 01-07-2013, 02:42 PM   #48
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What was his MOS?
I lied! He was in the Air Force. Don't know why I said Army. He was discharged (honorable) in '99. He guarded nukes up at Malmstrom for six years, spent a year in Incerlik, and two at Ramstein. I think his first year he spent bouncing around. Whatever training he had as far as small arms obviously didn't take. I love him and am thankful of his service but am unable to enjoy any shooting sports together due to his absent mindedness around a "weapon".
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Old 01-07-2013, 03:27 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Rick1967
I think that dealers should be required to show basic handling when selling a gun. Things like how to insert and remove a mag, how to rack the slide to show an empty chamber. .
Here in California they are required to do those checks with you before you leave using snap caps of coarse.
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Old 01-07-2013, 03:50 PM   #50
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Here in California they are required to do those checks with you before you leave using snap caps of coarse.
Yup. That they are. Sort of comical when both you and the guy at the store know that you a) know that gun intimately or b) learned all that before you bought the damned thing to begin with,

BUT, it does no harm, so I don't mind at all. If I were required to go through the whole half hour or whatever every time that would be a serious pain in the ass. Two minutes I can handle though.
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