Why dont we start a Pro 2A petition from FTF? - Page 5
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Why dont we start a Pro 2A petition from FTF?


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Old 10-15-2012, 03:19 PM   #41
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As usual bkt didn't disappoint and I really like the lay out.

I did cringe a bit at the last line, as we all know the government is prone to over-reaching, but in light of bkt's explanantion, it does make sense.

I think the thing to do is get one, master sheet with signatures. I have mulling this over in my head all weekend as to how.

Is there a way to scan a copy of ones signature and have it digitally transferred to one copy of this document that could be "the master"? Then once we have all "signed it" a copy could be sent to everyone via their e-mail, printed off and sent to all members of your state that need a wake up call.

Baring that we would need to send the original from house to house which we know from previous Phoenix and White Elephant projects can take for ever.

Open to suggestions, but I really like the wording of that one.

JD
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Old 10-15-2012, 04:23 PM   #42
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I want to take my thoughts above one step further:

I have a proposition.

The Repbulicans have done a fine job with the "no new taxes, period" pledge.
How about if we get a pledge from the Congress of "no new laws"?

There are probably at least tens of thousands of laws on the books. Some are useful, some are sometimes useful and others are just plain stupid...... With tens of thousnds of laws, we don't need new laws, we need some common sense in enforcing the good ones and getting rid of the bad ones. After all, God only gave Moses ten laws.

Now I know we live in a more complicated society then in the time of the great Exodus, so we should make allowances. How would you all feel about living with, say, 100 laws? Hell, we could memorize them. No way to squrim out of breakng the laws with smart lawyers pulling antiquated laws from some dusty lawbook. Everybody would know the laws and there would be no excuse for doing wrong.

Lets start a petition for "NO NEW LAWS". If we got a pledge of no new laws, then the Congress could only focus on removing bad laws from the books, or they would just have to sit on their asses, causing no harm. Within ten or twenty years, we should be in much better shape.
I agree completely with this. If this is the angle we want to take, fine, but this thread should be relocated to the Politics section.
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Old 10-15-2012, 04:28 PM   #43
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As usual bkt didn't disappoint and I really like the lay out.

I did cringe a bit at the last line, as we all know the government is prone to over-reaching, but in light of bkt's explanantion, it does make sense.

I think the thing to do is get one, master sheet with signatures. I have mulling this over in my head all weekend as to how.

Is there a way to scan a copy of ones signature and have it digitally transferred to one copy of this document that could be "the master"? Then once we have all "signed it" a copy could be sent to everyone via their e-mail, printed off and sent to all members of your state that need a wake up call.

Baring that we would need to send the original from house to house which we know from previous Phoenix and White Elephant projects can take for ever.

Open to suggestions, but I really like the wording of that one.

JD
Truth be told, it could have been a whole lot more cringe-inducing than it is, but a lot of gun owners aren't there, yet.

Feel free to modify it to your heart's content. There are online petition sites you can use to gather signatures and then send it off to whomever when the petition closes.

If FTF will be mentioned, I suggest getting notdku's buy-in before doing anything. I also suggest posting a link to the petition on as many other gun and right-leaning forums as possible, contacting right-leaning media and making them aware of it, and passing the link around to your local Tea Party, friends, family and anyone else who would be inclined to sign it.

As muted as it is, that last line will probably be a huge turn-off for many people too scared to put their name down.
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Old 10-15-2012, 08:20 PM   #44
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Once the final draft of this petition is complete, post on here and get the feedback from as many members as possible. It should be posted on the open forum so that all the members can weigh in on it. Give it say 90 days. At the end of the 90 days put it on the petitions website so that it can be sent out.

I like what I have read so far.
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Old 10-15-2012, 08:30 PM   #45
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Once the final draft of this petition is complete, post on here and get the feedback from as many members as possible. It should be posted on the open forum so that all the members can weigh in on it. Give it say 90 days. At the end of the 90 days put it on the petitions website so that it can be sent out.

I like what I have read so far.
Thanks. Others are free to modify it however they like. I'd like to see some more edit suggestions...
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Old 10-15-2012, 08:56 PM   #46
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The Second Amendment in the Bill of Rights acknowledges the natural right of all individuals to protect their lives, property, wealth and liberty - "the security of a free state" - by use of force against a belligerent government or any other force intent on unjustly depriving individuals of these things.

Unfortunately, legislators over the past many decades have endeavored to erode that right in the name of decreasing crime and increasing safety.

Gun-control laws have proven themselves ineffective because criminals do not obey laws and do not acquire firearms from the same sources law-abiding citizens do. The citizens of Illinois - Chicago in particular - endure some of the most strict gun-control laws in the nation, yet 2,124 people have been shot in Chicago as of early October, 2012 resulting in 433 deaths. New York City, another city with extremely strict gun-control, has seen gun crime rise by 11% in 2012.

In contrast, states that have relaxed their gun-control laws and which have seen the largest increase in gun ownership by law-abiding citizens also have enjoyed the largest drop in violent crimes. Criminals are deterred when the risk of confronting someone able to defend him or herself is too high.

History shows the systematic disarming of populations leads to tyranny and genocide. Armenia, Germany, the Soviet Union, China, Guatemala, Uganda, Cambodia and other nations in the past century alone show clearly what happens when armed government thugs impose their will on a disarmed citizenry: genocide and mass-graves.

Legislators at all levels of government have openly shown contempt for reading bills, understanding the content of bills, and understanding the issues that prompted the drafting of a bill. A great deal of gun-control legislation has passed because legislators and executives are ignorant of issues. The result has been to penalize the law-abiding and create a safer environment for criminals. We are not suggesting that those in office today are surreptitiously working to increase crime or working to impose a totalitarian regime. We are stating definitively that those in office today are unwittingly opening the door for these things to happen in the future.

This is unacceptable.

In light of the irrefutable facts that:
  • Gun-control legislation imposes restrictions on the law-abiding, not criminals;
  • Gun-control legislation enables higher rates of violent crime;
  • Gun-control, leading incrementally to disarmament, results in tyranny and mass-murder;
  • Good-intentioned but ignorant legislators and executives are ultimately responsible for gun-control legislation, that:

We, the undersigned, pledge:
  • To refuse to obey any further abuse of one of our natural rights specifically enumerated in our Bill of Rights;
  • To refuse to provide any support whatsoever to any elected official who advocates gun-control legislation (either the enforcement of existing laws or creation of new laws);
  • To actively support in every way all elected officials or prospective candidates who actively work to repeal gun-control legislation and who refuse to endorse future gun-control legislation.
  • To meet force with force, should it become necessary to do so.
JD isn't fond of the last line. Here's my take. As Washington eloquently observed, government is force. That's all it is. Refusal to obey laws - even illegal and unjust laws - will ultimately be met with the threat of lethal force. My objective is to politely convey that the threat or use of force will be returned.

Our system of government is the best on the planet; I do not advocate any violence on anyone. I do not advocate in any way overthrowing those in government. But I do advocate the common-sense rule that if someone means to force you to do something unreasonable and threatens you with violence if you don't comply that you should know you are free and right to return the gesture.

If we are willing to die for our rights, we are certainly willing to kill for them.
Here is an unfriendly but necessary addition, since the subject was already mentioned at the beginning of this thread but not clarified. The subject of the quote below should be put into the final draft of the petition.

"Under the GCA, selling of firearms to certain categories of individuals is prohibited.

AS QUOTED FROM Section 922 Section D Bowleg 1-9
(d) It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person - (1) is under indictment for, or has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year (2) is a fugitive from justice; (3) is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 802)); (4) has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution; (5) who, being an alien - (A) is illegally or unlawfully in the United States; or (B) except as provided in subsection (y)(2), has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as that term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(26))); (6) who (!2) has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions; (7) who, having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his citizenship; (8) is subject to a court order that restrains such person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner of such person or child of such intimate partner or person, or engaging in other conduct that would place an intimate partner in reasonable fear of bodily injury to the partner or child, except that this paragraph shall only apply to a court order that - (A) was issued after a hearing of which such person received actual notice, and at which such person had the opportunity to participate; and (B)(i) includes a finding that such person represents a credible threat to the physical safety of such intimate partner or child; or (ii) by its terms explicitly prohibits the use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against such intimate partner or child that would reasonably be expected to cause bodily injury; or (9) has been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence.

Exceptions as quoted from DEFINITIONS GCA Sec.921 section B

(ii) A person shall not be considered to have been convicted of such an offense for purposes of this chapter if the conviction has been expunged or set aside, or is an offense for which the person has been pardoned or has had civil rights restored (if the law of the applicable jurisdiction provides for the loss of civil rights under such an offense) unless the pardon, expungement, or restoration of civil rights expressly provides that the person may not ship, transport, possess, or receive firearms.

For the record, this is the only part of the GCA of '68 that I like.

You all will pardon me while I seek appropriate cover now.
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Old 10-15-2012, 09:07 PM   #47
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So...you're saying you think a caste system in the U.S. with some people having rights and others not having rights is a good idea? Not trying to be a dick...just trying to understand.

Violent felons shouldn't have firearms. They should be dead. Crazy people should not have firearms. Their families should ensure they don't get hold of them. People charged with a crime have not been convicted of a crime. Obviously, if they're in prison, no, they don't get to keep weapons on them.
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Old 10-15-2012, 09:32 PM   #48
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We should have something in place until the violent criminals are dead, until the crazy people are secured by the families or the state. For people charged but not convicted, their rights remain unchanged until their case is resolved.

So what I have added needs to be reworded to the effect that if a person does something that would cause their rights to be taken away for a time or permanently. No caste system.

Or in other words, take what I have posted and rewrite it with that excellent legal skill that you have to say what I have posed in my paragraph above.

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Originally Posted by bkt View Post
So...you're saying you think a caste system in the U.S. with some people having rights and others not having rights is a good idea? Not trying to be a dick...just trying to understand.

Violent felons shouldn't have firearms. They should be dead. Crazy people should not have firearms. Their families should ensure they don't get hold of them. People charged with a crime have not been convicted of a crime. Obviously, if they're in prison, no, they don't get to keep weapons on them.
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Old 10-15-2012, 10:25 PM   #49
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If youve done your time and are no longer being punished for it, you should become a full citizen again, just my opinion, NY says Im wrong, if your a fellon, you dont get to excercize your 2a. If were not putting them away long enough to give them a clue, thats our fault and we can and should change that. I dont think this conversation needs to go that direction if I may be so bold, States have most of the say as to if or who gets their rights back or never does. Anything we propose in this should be as ubiquitous as possible so that they get a sense were speaking with jurisprudence purity in our voice not just Gun Totters with a bone to pick.

The goals of preventing new and getting rid of old laws that run counter to the specific and basic phraseology of the Bill of Rights is righteous enough without deep distractions caused by parsing potatoes. Its just as important that someone with an 8th grade education be able to understand their rights and responsibilities as it is for a courtroom full of Legal Degrees, maybe even more-so.

They should know that were pretty open to options just as long as they don't punish the innocent many for the bad deeds of the criminal few.
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Old 10-15-2012, 10:31 PM   #50
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If youve done your time and are no longer being punished for it, you should become a full citizen again, just my opinion, NY says Im wrong, if your a fellon, you dont get to excercize your 2a. If were not putting them away long enough to give them a clue, thats our fault and we can and should change that. I dont think this conversation needs to go that direction if I may be so bold, States have most of the say as to if or who gets their rights back or never does. Anything we propose in this should be as ubiquitous as possible so that they get a sense were speaking with jurisprudence purity in our voice not just Gun Totters with a bone to pick.

The goals of preventing new and getting rid of old laws that run counter to the specific and basic phraseology of the Bill of Rights is righteous enough without deep distractions caused by parsing potatoes. Its just as important that someone with an 8th grade education be able to understand their rights and responsibilities as it is for a courtroom full of Legal Degrees, maybe even more-so.

They should know that were pretty open to options just as long as they don't punish the innocent many for the bad deeds of the criminal few.
Agree 100%. The petition can easily turn into a 60-volume tome reviewing history and examining specific situations and I'd like to avoid that.

Defeating the utopian air-heads means more than securing 2A rights. It also means capital punishment, ensuring individuals do no harm to others, abolishing redistribution of wealth schemes, etc. The petition isn't about all that.
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