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Why dont we start a Pro 2A petition from FTF?


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Old 10-14-2012, 06:30 PM   #21
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I can tell you how to make your petition the most effective, and save on time and effort; there are only 9 people that the petition would need to impress. No one else matters. I am certain that the nine I have in mind would be very interested in the legal opinions of gun forum members.
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Old 10-14-2012, 06:51 PM   #22
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Short answer:

Probably the same reason we couldn't get GOFFA

to fly?
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Old 10-14-2012, 07:53 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by therewolf
Short answer:

Probably the same reason we couldn't get GOFFA

to fly?
Why was that?
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Old 10-14-2012, 07:57 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chainfire
I can tell you how to make your petition the most effective, and save on time and effort; there are only 9 people that the petition would need to impress. No one else matters. I am certain that the nine I have in mind would be very interested in the legal opinions of gun forum members.
I can think of 535 others to influence as well.
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Old 10-14-2012, 08:23 PM   #25
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I can think of 535 others to influence as well.
The writing of the law is already a part of the Constitution. No further legislation is necessary, so the 535 don't really matter.

The whole issue is one of legal interpretation. We have designated nine people to handle that task, and as a nation, have accepted their judgemants.

If the interpretation is that the right of people to bear arms is immutable and unchangable then it will make some people happy. If the right to keep and bear arms is subject to ifs, ands, and buts, then it will make others happy. If we misread the constitutional meaning and we have no rights to own firearms, then it will make another group happy.

Even as a gun owner, I do not see the right to keep and bear arms as absolute. If it were, then we could not prevent the criminals or the insane, or children from keeping and bearing arms. Neither could we prevent internal terrorist groups from keeping and bearing arms. The 2nd amendment can not be both a ridgid and flexible right at the same time.

If you accept that the right is not universal, and the above groups should not be allowed to go about armed then, the "right" is subject to the will of the lawmakers as to which restrictions are acceptable and which are not, at any point in time. As with any structure that is regulated, the regulations tend to grow not shrink.

Right now we have a system that not everyone is happy with, but no group is unhappy enough, and at the same time, powerful enough, to enforce changes either to more restrictive or to less restricitve gun laws. I would rather live with what we have now then to allow futher tinkering.
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Old 10-14-2012, 08:24 PM   #26
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We dont need to create an organization, committees or focus group. We already have that without electing boards and such, FTF has an impressive membership (41,000 members, 1100 on line as we speak) and a growing voice in the cyberworld, Politicians are just starting to realize the power of the internet and smaller groups of folks that choose to associate with each other out of a non political bond can influence much larger populations via friends, neighbors and our own families.

We wont eclipse the NRA, we certainly dont have the star power of the MADD, AARP or The NAACP but we have paying memberships, leaders that keep the house rules and a oddly diverse following from coast to coast and abroad. 41,000 voices do have an impact, tinkering is a bad idea; rolling back the laws that restrict our freedoms isnt tinkering, its serious business and were only helpless when we say we cant have an effect,

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Old 10-14-2012, 08:41 PM   #27
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I want to take my thoughts above one step further:

I have a proposition.

The Repbulicans have done a fine job with the "no new taxes, period" pledge.
How about if we get a pledge from the Congress of "no new laws"?

There are probably at least tens of thousands of laws on the books. Some are useful, some are sometimes useful and others are just plain stupid...... With tens of thousnds of laws, we don't need new laws, we need some common sense in enforcing the good ones and getting rid of the bad ones. After all, God only gave Moses ten laws.

Now I know we live in a more complicated society then in the time of the great Exodus, so we should make allowances. How would you all feel about living with, say, 100 laws? Hell, we could memorize them. No way to squrim out of breakng the laws with smart lawyers pulling antiquated laws from some dusty lawbook. Everybody would know the laws and there would be no excuse for doing wrong.

Lets start a petition for "NO NEW LAWS". If we got a pledge of no new laws, then the Congress could only focus on removing bad laws from the books, or they would just have to sit on their asses, causing no harm. Within ten or twenty years, we should be in much better shape.
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Old 10-14-2012, 08:46 PM   #28
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CF, That sounds like a great rider for the 2a Petition. Im not looking for new laws, just get rid of the old useless and likely non-founder friendly ones!
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Old 10-14-2012, 08:56 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chainfire

The writing of the law is already a part of the Constitution. No further legislation is necessary, so the 535 don't really matter.

The whole issue is one of legal interpretation. We have designated nine people to handle that task, and as a nation, have accepted their judgemants.

If the interpretation is that the right of people to bear arms is immutable and unchangable then it will make some people happy. If the right to keep and bear arms is subject to ifs, ands, and buts, then it will make others happy. If we misread the constitutional meaning and we have no rights to own firearms, then it will make another group happy.

Even as a gun owner, I do not see the right to keep and bear arms as absolute. If it were, then we could not prevent the criminals or the insane, or children from keeping and bearing arms. Neither could we prevent internal terrorist groups from keeping and bearing arms. The 2nd amendment can not be both a ridgid and flexible right at the same time.

If you accept that the right is not universal, and the above groups should not be allowed to go about armed then, the "right" is subject to the will of the lawmakers as to which restrictions are acceptable and which are not, at any point in time. As with any structure that is regulated, the regulations tend to grow not shrink.

Right now we have a system that not everyone is happy with, but no group is unhappy enough, and at the same time, powerful enough, to enforce changes either to more restrictive or to less restricitve gun laws. I would rather live with what we have now then to allow futher tinkering.
I understand that the 2nd Amendment itself is a matter of legal interpretation. However congress is the group that can pass gun related legislation.

I believe I remember you mentioning you live in Florida on a thread, or maybe I read that in your bio. It's very easy for someone to say that they are happy with current gun laws when they live in a pro-gun, castle doctrine state.

I live in California. Every time I try promote the 2a cause in my state I feel like I'm making Pickett's Charge. Im not happy with the current gun laws and think a lot of anti-gun legislation needs to be taken off the books.

I'm with Webley. Plain & simple, gun owners need to peacefully work to make our country in general more pro-gun. I think a petition on FTF is a small step.

Chain, please no more cold water. I get your message, but I think myself as well as many others on here would like to see this petition thing get going.

Now back to the petition. What in it do you think should be changed? So far we've established that only violent, and drug related felons are excluded from lawful purchase of a firearm.
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Old 10-14-2012, 09:03 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueguns View Post
I understand that the 2nd Amendment itself is a matter of legal interpretation. However congress is the group that can pass gun related legislation.

I believe I remember you mentioning you live in Florida on a thread, or maybe I read that in your bio. It's very easy for someone to say that they are happy with current gun laws when they live in a pro-gun, castle doctrine state.

I live in California. Every time I try promote the 2a cause in my state I feel like I'm making Pickett's Charge. Im not happy with the current gun laws and think a lot of anti-gun legislation needs to be taken off the books.

I'm with Webley. Plain & simple, gun owners need to peacefully work to make our country in general more pro-gun. I think a petition on FTF is a small step.

Chain, please no more cold water. I get your message, but I think myself as well as many others on here would like to see this petition thing get going.

Now back to the petition. What in it do you think should be changed? So far we've established that only violent, and drug related felons are excluded from lawful purchase of a firearm.
Maybe I am to verbose.

My point is: Either the 2nd is immutable, or it is not. Be careful if it is not.

I do live in Florida, the gun laws suit my needs. If I lived in California, I would be working to change California laws, or moving to Fl. ; a much more simple set of solutions then some vague petition supporting 2a.

But, if it feels good, do it.
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