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Old 08-01-2013, 11:59 AM   #71
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I only become one of those "young know-it-alls" when someone tries to talk down to me. I don't mind people having differences in opinion and I definitely don't always believe mine is right. I'm always open for new ideas and new ways of looking at things. If someone is going to have a difference of opinion than I am, fine, tell me why. But I'm not going to go along with "yeah I use to think that way when I was young and a moron too and didn't know any better."

It's funny how when I hear a lot of older people talk about the good ol days and what wrong with my generation, one of the things they say is that we are losing our ability to think for ourself and we're being taught to just go along with the crowd. Yet here I am simply stating my opinion and telling why I believe that way and I get "yeah by the time I was 35 I realized I didn't know anything at your age." So I'm confused. Am I supposed to be able to think for myself or am I just supposed to sit back and go along with everyone else's ideas, even if I don't agree with them, until I am old enough to myself be able to have my own opinion and the only reasoning I need to back it up with is "because I'm older than you and know better"?

So my question still stands...if I am just a young, arrogant know-it-all, someone please explain to me where the grey areas of the 2A are? I'm open to the idea, I just need to hear a reason why.
It's my understanding that there is only an assumed gray area. There really isn't, it is black and white, but most people don't view it that way. That's because they don't bother reading any of the writings of the Founding Fathers in regards to any of the Constitution, let alone the 2A.
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Old 08-01-2013, 12:04 PM   #72
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I only become one of those "young know-it-alls" when someone tries to talk down to me. I don't mind people having differences in opinion and I definitely don't always believe mine is right. I'm always open for new ideas and new ways of looking at things. If someone is going to have a difference of opinion than I am, fine, tell me why. But I'm not going to go along with "yeah I use to think that way when I was young and a moron too and didn't know any better."

It's funny how when I hear a lot of older people talk about the good ol days and what wrong with my generation, one of the things they say is that we are losing our ability to think for ourself and we're being taught to just go along with the crowd. Yet here I am simply stating my opinion and telling why I believe that way and I get "yeah by the time I was 35 I realized I didn't know anything at your age." So I'm confused. Am I supposed to be able to think for myself or am I just supposed to sit back and go along with everyone else's ideas, even if I don't agree with them, until I am old enough to myself be able to have my own opinion and the only reasoning I need to back it up with is "because I'm older than you and know better"?

So my question still stands...if I am just a young, arrogant know-it-all, someone please explain to me where the grey areas of the 2A are? I'm open to the idea, I just need to hear a reason why.
I dont see any grey areas Clem, to me the BOR's are pretty clear but you cant just pick one of them as a topic without considering the rest of them at the same time. If you violate anyone elses rights enjoying your 2A right, thats not grey; its the entire basis for prosecution under our law.

Just for the record, I dont dislike young people; the truth be known if anything Im jealous, you have your whole life ahead of you and 2/3rds or more of mine is likely gone. Another old Fogey saying is "I wouldnt want to be young again unless I could know what I know now". Your generation and the coming ones have challenges that I cant imagine tackling even if "Lifes Good" for most of the younger folk I know, its really tentative and changing way too fast for me to keep up with.
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Old 08-01-2013, 12:37 PM   #73
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I dont see any grey areas Clem, to me the BOR's are pretty clear but you cant just pick one of them as a topic without considering the rest of them at the same time. If you violate anyone elses rights enjoying your 2A right, thats not grey; its the entire basis for prosecution under our law.

Just for the record, I dont dislike young people; the truth be known if anything Im jealous, you have your whole life ahead of you and 2/3rds or more of mine is likely gone. Another old Fogey saying is "I wouldnt want to be young again unless I could know what I know now". Your generation and the coming ones have challenges that I cant imagine tackling even if "Lifes Good" for most of the younger folk I know, its really tentative and changing way too fast for me to keep up with.
That's the thing. There is supposed to be something called equal protection under the law.

Also, the Founding Fathers envisioned a society where the individual's rights out weighed the group's. That is the basis for a Constitutional Republic, which is what this new nation was founded as.

The idea of the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few is a Marxist ideal (which he states). This is counter productive in a Constitutional Republic, which is why the Libs want to change it.
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Old 08-01-2013, 01:49 PM   #74
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I only become one of those "young know-it-alls" when someone tries to talk down to me. I don't mind people having differences in opinion and I definitely don't always believe mine is right. I'm always open for new ideas and new ways of looking at things. If someone is going to have a difference of opinion than I am, fine, tell me why. But I'm not going to go along with "yeah I use to think that way when I was young and a moron too and didn't know any better."

It's funny how when I hear a lot of older people talk about the good ol days and what wrong with my generation, one of the things they say is that we are losing our ability to think for ourself and we're being taught to just go along with the crowd. Yet here I am simply stating my opinion and telling why I believe that way and I get "yeah by the time I was 35 I realized I didn't know anything at your age." So I'm confused. Am I supposed to be able to think for myself or am I just supposed to sit back and go along with everyone else's ideas, even if I don't agree with them, until I am old enough to myself be able to have my own opinion and the only reasoning I need to back it up with is "because I'm older than you and know better"?

So my question still stands...if I am just a young, arrogant know-it-all, someone please explain to me where the grey areas of the 2A are? I'm open to the idea, I just need to hear a reason why.
Take a few courses in Constitutional law. And read a few opinions from the more learned members of the SCOTUS.

The American people, government, legal community, etc, have always, from the beginning of the republic, accepted that the SCOTUS is the final arbiter of the constitution. Read Holmes, Cardozo, Brandeis, Black, Scalia, Marshall and the other finest legal scholars in human history. None of them considered the law black and white.
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Old 08-01-2013, 03:35 PM   #75
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Take a few courses in Constitutional law. And read a few opinions from the more learned members of the SCOTUS.

The American people, government, legal community, etc, have always, from the beginning of the republic, accepted that the SCOTUS is the final arbiter of the constitution. Read Holmes, Cardozo, Brandeis, Black, Scalia, Marshall and the other finest legal scholars in human history. None of them considered the law black and white.
If the BOR's are open for interpretation, then they may as well not exist. Especially when the sole intention of their existence is to protect the people from the "authority" who are ironically doing the interpreting. I think the legal term for that would be "conflict of interest". And just because the Supreme Court makes a decision with respect to the Constitution, it does not mean it is an educated one. Dred Scott v. Sanford said that no black man shall ever be a citizen of the United States and therefore never be protected under the US Constitution...but we don't exactly consider that to have been the greatest of decisions ever now do we?

And I'm not arguing that it hasn't been done. But just because something has been done over and over again doesn't make it right. I'm simply arguing the principle. If you allow the 2A to be interpreted some way other than how it plainly reads, you set a precedent that allows any amendment in the Constitution to be simply changed on a whim to the likings of our government. We are then an authoritarian government simply going by a different name.

If there is only one thing I have ever been guilty of in my life, it is having an extremely analytical mind. You can ask anyone that knows me, I read way too deeply into things and pick people's words or statements apart and scrutinize everything they say. But I gotta tell ya, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" just seems to be as plain and simply said as it could have possibly been. I don't think anyone can argue who exactly the people are. About all you can argue is what "arms" could be defined as, but even then the most conservative of definitions would be more liberal than the liberals would like.

But all that aside, you still have yet to let me know where exactly the grey areas lie. I do not care what Constitutional scholars you can claim allegedly support your opinion. Give me an example of one and, if you would like, perhaps evidence backing it up. But right now I would just settle for an example.
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Old 08-01-2013, 11:34 PM   #76
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I agree, but there's a lot of people out there the exact same way. if one thing doesn't work why keep doing it the same way. If prison doesn't rehabilitate then it's time to try something new... like hard labor, or hell...maybe even military service
Fortunately the Military stopped taking people with criminal records as an alternative to jail after Vietnam. Now a days, it takes an act of congress to get in with more than three speeding tickets over a certain value.
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Old 08-01-2013, 11:51 PM   #77
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Fortunately the Military stopped taking people with criminal records as an alternative to jail after Vietnam. Now a days, it takes an act of congress to get in with more than three speeding tickets over a certain value.
The military should be composed of America's finest men and women. No one else.

Now if we had a "Foreign Legion"................
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Old 08-02-2013, 12:10 AM   #78
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It's easy to see things in black and white when you're very young. (At least it was for me) As you age, they become a bit more grey.

Winston Churchill said: "If a man is not a socialist at 20, he has no heart. If he's still a socialist at 40, he has no head."


Your perception of the world changes as you gain life experience. (You won't believe that now, but it will happen)

Formal education is a wonderful thing, but it's not a substitute for life experience. Unfortunately, that is a lesson that cannot be taught, but must be learned individually.
I agree with this as well. I am just a little bit over 40 and a little under 50, and my opinions on things changed over time. When I was younger I never gave much thought about jail or anything remotely related to violating the law. I would have to say that the reason for that would be that I was raised right and saw what happened to people that went to jail.

Now that I am a little more seasoned, I feel that if the person commits the crime, they do the maximum. No plea bargains, no time off for good behavior. Capital Offenses warrant the death penalty, so be it.

All time spent at hard labor. They should be feed, clothed, and given a place to sleep and medical treatment, and of course a chance to worship if they so desire. But that would be it. I realize that I have said things here that others have said, so be it. Now if the powers that be state that the person has completed his/her sentence and that they are qualified to re-enter society, then their Constitutional Rights should be restored, all of them. There will be no second chance if they violate the law again. If they do not appreciate getting them back after their stay in prison, they do not deserve them again. All of the Constitutional Rights carry a certain amount of responsibility.
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Old 08-02-2013, 12:30 AM   #79
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Let's say hypothetically they did hard labor, what would you guys have then do with people to weren't physically able... or even just flat out refused

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Old 08-02-2013, 12:36 AM   #80
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Let's say hypothetically they did hard labor, what would you guys have then do with people to weren't physically able... or even just flat out refused
There is work that the handicapped can do. As for the ones that flat out refuse, well there is a place that even the hardest of prisoners do not want to go. Solitary Confinement. If it messes up their minds, then there is confinement in the local giggle factory.
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