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Old 11-26-2011, 10:10 PM   #81
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I don't recall calling you names,however,my position on police and policing in America is well aired and quite simple.

There is a world of difference between a cop who simply "enforces the law" as it is without applying their own judgment as to the legitimacy of the laws they are being asked to enforce,and a peace officer who believes his duty is to first apply the Constitution as it is the highest law,and then to preserve the peace.
Doesn't really have much to do with the corporate world,as the fact is,if it were not for police,all of us would have to take time out of our primary occupations to deal with criminals.So ultimately,the professional police force is something that makes production easier and an asset to business.
And as long as the police recognize that they are delegates of the general authority of the people,and not purely agents of the state,and will apply the law -the Constitution especially- even to others who work for the state like the bureaucrats and politicians,equally to everyone,then were good.

Sadly,however,this is becoming less and less the case.And don't get me started on how the limited police powers granted the federal government has just been plain ignored and has resulted in more central government police apparatus then Stalins' Soviet union.

But THAT,is a topic for another discussion.

Back to the issue at hand,the reality that you outline in your post that were discussing illustrates the stark reality that the government sees the individual who acts in self defense as someone subject to their rules,and not natural law,and hence,as someone who might have the privilege to defend themselves at government discretion and by bureaucratic regulation,and not a human being with an inalienable right to do so.

The matter at hand is rather simple-
Did you have a reason to have to defend yourself?

If yes,then there is no crime.Period.

If someone acts to violate your rights,then you have the right to defend yourself.Period.

But the reality of the Peoples Demokratik Socialist Nanny State of Amerika dictates otherwise.

You are simply attempting to give good advice on how to attempt to survive such a situation according to those dictates.

Nothing wrong with that.

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Old 11-26-2011, 10:20 PM   #82
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@AZ, you may be completely right as far as what happened to my boss in court. I wasn't at the proceedings myself, but I know his argument on the whole matter was that he knew the guy and didn't want to have to kill him. I don't know how the whole scenario played in court, but I know they charged him with manslaughter, which of course he was acquitted. One bankruptcy later. Sure he was pissed that it even went to trial, but in the end, he's just happy his anal cherry is still in one piece and not ruined by a cell mate.

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Old 11-26-2011, 10:39 PM   #83
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Its ridiculous that a man in his own home,when attacked by those who openly claimed they wanted to kill him,should have to face bankruptcy to prove his innocence.

Absolutly ridiculous.

Unless,of course,you consider the angle...the money angle,that is.

Lawyers enriching each other is a despicable problem in our justice system.

But thats a "conspiracy theory" and off topic.

Nuff said.

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Old 11-27-2011, 12:01 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KalashnikovJosh View Post
Its ridiculous that a man in his own home,when attacked by those who openly claimed they wanted to kill him,should have to face bankruptcy to prove his innocence.

Absolutly ridiculous.

Unless,of course,you consider the angle...the money angle,that is.

Lawyers enriching each other is a despicable problem in our justice system.

But thats a "conspiracy theory" and off topic.

Nuff said.
Yes, it IS ridiculous, but one thing that HAS to be remembered, and you are on the fringe of putting it into words here....LAWS ARE WRITTEN BY, AND ADMINISTERED BY LAWYERS.

See...LAWYERS very seldom try facts, they try theories. The prosecution frames their evidence into a THEORY of what happened, and the defense "shooting for reasonable doubt" uses evidence, or lack of it, to frame their THEORY of what might have happened.

ANY prosecutor with a hard on for a mark in the WIN column is going to make outrageous claims hoping to get the jusry to bite.

The defense is going to try to shoot holes into that theory with what we call "credible defense".

In the case of the friend of the OP....I am betting the prosecutor went with the theory: "Since your first shots were not lethal in nature, you didn't really feel a lethal threat existed at the time...."

I am not saying it is right, I am saying it is reality.

Administered fairly...our criminal justice system is the best in the world.

Here in Arizona, THE best state for self defense, and SD is an AFFIRMATIVE defense, wherein the burden of proof is on the prosecution to PROVE that YOU didn't fire in self defense, an actor in a righteous shoot, is protected from civil suits arising from that shooting. That protection doesn't cover you in your home only, it covers you wherever you happen to legally be.

I have a VERY good and close relationship with a criminal defense attorney. She and I have worked together several times since I retired. I have been used as her "hired gun" expert witness. I have given her $2500 worth of training and court time in exchange for a retainer in case I am ever in a civilian SD incident. Couple that with my pre-paid legal policy of which she is a member-attorney, and my personal liability insurance to cover the rest of any legal fees and trial expenses in a criminal case...I am pretty well protected. I am not worried about civil suits.

The truth is...I am not worried about criminal prosecution in a SD case either. I KNOW how to articulate to officers WHY "I was forced to take the action I took in order to STOP an assault that placed myself or my family in IMMEDIATE AND OTHERWISE UNAVOIDABLE DANGER OF DEATH OR GRAVE BODILY HARM".

Your initial statement will largely determine how the rest of a case will flow.

"I SHOT THAT SONOFABITCH!" is NOT going to help you at all...yet I have heard THAT numerous times, and officers are going to put that in their report, because it is what you said. Then the prosecutor is going to grab onto that statement and try to nail your coffin lid closed. Even if the shoot was otherwise totally righteous...BOOM.

If you engage in asshattery prior to the shooting, and run your macho mouth, and it goes south....then a fight breaks out, you may very well lose your mantle of protection of a self defense claim because you were a WILLING PARTICIPANT in the fight.

That is why you will notice in ALL my threads I advocate SO strongly trying to be the peacemaker. BE READY TO GO RIGHT NOW....but...be seen as the peacemaker. PARABELLUM is so right. Seek peace, but PREPARE FOR WAR.

"Oh, Man...I'm sorry." Even if it is NOT your fault.
"Oh, excuse me..." Even if YOU didn't bump them and prick their stupid egotistic pride.

What have you lost? You did ALL YOU COULD DO TO AVOID THE CONFLICT...then if something DOES happen...you are the one who TRIED TO AVOID A FIGHT UNTIL YOU WERE FORCED INTO IT.

There are a LOT of thick headed macho types (some around here) who show their asses in their posts. Sticking guns in someone's face over macho bull****, or claiming they will shoot someone over a simple punch in the face...no damned wonder why so many people are prosecuted for acting in SD. THEY HELPED ESCALATE THE SITUATION FROM A SIMPLE SCUFFLE OR EXCHANGE OF WORDS INTO AN ALL OUT FIGHT FOR SURVIVAL.

I know you didn't call me any names...my comment about being a knuckledragging cop is one we tend to hear from lawyers and civilians, when in actuality WE deal with this **** all the time, and after 23 years I KNOW A HELL OF A LOT MORE ABOUT SD THAN 99% OF LAWYERS OUT THERE. Do you know how many lawyers will actually take and defend a SD case in their career? The percentage is infinitessimally small. On the other hand...how ma ny homicides will a cop work from front to back in their career? THAT percentage grows to huge numbers.

I don't know your background Josh. I don't know if YOU are a lawyer, though I suspect you aren't. I know you're not a cop, nor have you played one on TV. That is not meant as an insult...it is just that I have ass-in-the-grass knowledge of this subject, and a whole lot more than most people. There is one other person on this board that I am aware of who has the same level of experience and expertise...armsmaster...I think he would be in agreement with what I have said here.

I can pretty much tell you the WHY of someone getting prosecuted just by reading the first page of a report.
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Old 11-27-2011, 11:16 PM   #85
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Yeah I like Arizona- recently, ya'll enacted "constitutional carry" and that was a real good thing.Your one of 4 states that actually understands the principle of how the Second Amendment and the Supremacy clause work together to make the 2A the law of the land.

And I,too,am in agreement with what you say here.Your in the reality of the matter.
And reality dictates that we must behave in certain ways,whether they make sense or not.

Personally,I would apologize and walk away if SOMEONE ELSE steps on my shoe or something,because its just not worth the trouble.
There are real reasons to stand your ground and fight,and real reasons to just get the heck away from stupidity as fast as possible.
Also,after over a decade of studying martial arts,I have nothing to prove to anyone.
I agree 110% that people need to get training.

When I say things like in my earlier post,that the time to shoot is "when they come for your guns",and such,I'm just generally echoing the growing philosophy of many folks who are sick and tired of our inalienable rights being eroded away by out of control government.Its sort of a jest,but not really.
I fervently do believe that people have the right to defend themselves from out of control government,and that our Founders wrote of this issue on many occasions,their quotes in support of the matter and my viewpoint are numerous and affirmative of that point.

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."
-Thomas Jefferson

But thats besides the point of your posts,which relate to conflict management of a more mundane level.
Its not about gun confiscation,rather its about how one should deal with use of force scenarios relating to day to day issues.

And NO,folks should not go around popping each other over perceived or petty slights.

However,that being said,I do think a broadening of the understanding of use of force and even lethal force for self defense should be undertaken.Essentially, that means that if someone physically assaults you,you should have the right to defend yourself by any means available to you.
This is because people CAN and HAVE been seriously injured by those who never intended to do anything more then "put an azz whuppin" on someone.
Putting your hands on someone should not be tolerated,and courts should not favor as a "victim" some jackhole who thinks its ok to physically assault someone else and then gets plugged for his effort.
Too bad for him.
If he wasn't physically going after someone else,with the possibility that he could seriously hurt them even by accident,then he wouldn't have gotten shot.

"There exists a law, not written down anywhere, but in our hearts; a law which comes to us not by training or custom or reading; a law which has come to us not from theory but from practice; not by instruction but by natural intuition: I refer to the law which lays it down that, if our lives are endangered by plots or violence or armed robbers or enemies, any and every method of protecting ourselves is morally right."
-Marcus Tullius Cicero (106 BC-43 BC) Roman Orator and Statesman at the trial of T. Annius Milo in 52 BC

I'm totally with Cicero on this one.
The whole concept of escalation of force,of use of equal force and yadda yadda is not applicable in the heat of the moment when you are actively struggling to defend yourself from assault.
A justice system that applies such theory,as you named it yourself,is not only idiotic in its formulation of such,but morally repugnant to natural law,which is pretty simple-
If you don't go around acting like a butthole and thinking its ok to assault people or whatever,then you wont be retaliated upon by a person acting in righteous self defense.
Perhaps,just maybe- society would be a better place if people understood that if they went about their business with the understanding that assaultive behavior of any kind is intolerable,and would be met with whatever force was at hand,less of this thing would occur.

You also raise the interesting aspect of mutual combat.
Personally,I believe that if two people "agree" to fight it out,then whatever ills befall them are their own damn fault.There cannot possibly be a "victim" in a situation where both parties enter into consensual combat,unless a third party is injured or has their property damaged.
If anyone is to be punished for THAT,then BOTH of them should be EQUALLY.

Ultimately,I believe that by making laws contrary to the nature of things,or the natural way things occur,we hamper otherwise criminally innocent people with the burden of having to meet unnatural and functionally irrelevant requirements before they act in self defense.
And this more often then not ends in tragedy when a person who is innocent of any real crime is either hamstrung in action and fails to respond adequately to the threat,or is persecuted -not prosecuted- but persecuted by a justice system that itself,by stepping out of the natural law,and into the realm of theoretical application of restrictive mala prohibita law,seeks to make that otherwise innocent person a "criminal".

Often,you hear anecdotes like "what,you want it to be like the wild west in Dodge City" coming from hoplophobic liberals or overzealous bureaucrats who like the denial of natural law in favor of mala prohibita law,to which is easily responded to with the FACT that even in its wildest moments,"Dodge City" was by far a safer place then modern day Detroit or DC.

And I believe this is directly because people were not thrown under the prison bus for mutual combat or self defense- if someone provoked it or entered into it willingly,then they got what they got,and that was that.
People knew this,and because of this,people showed RESPECT for others.
Women and children were off limits by even the baddest outlaw,because they knew that they could rob banks and shoot it out with the law all day- but if they hurt or victimized an innocent the WHOLE DAMN TOWN would have their butts.

Now.
This is,of course,not todays reality,and most certainly regarding aspects of what THAT is,I would deffer to someone who has the knowledge of how to deal with it for what it is.

The reality is,that the court system and the lawyers all want a piece of the action,but in order to do that,they have to make rules that can be broken even in the course of natural events.

"There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible to live without breaking laws."
– Ayn Rand

So,in summary,things are what they are.Rectification of them is a different issue then having to deal with their reality,however,I like to put my little 2 cents in to color discussions of this sort with the idea that they CAN be rectified.

So,in my "perfect world",would i shoot a man for stepping on my shoe?
Hell no.
Thats just mean and stupid.
The guy made a mistake and its not like he's willingly assaulting me or anything.
AND I should be held criminally liable for such an action.

BUT I would be empowered to be able to say "excuse you,you stepped on my shoe" and not feel like I have to give up my human dignity for fear of an escalation that would result in my death or imprisonment.
And if I stepped on another man's shoe and he said the same?
I'd politely beg his pardon,rather then telling him to screw off cause I think I can get away with being a boorish little prick.

It seems,that in the natural course of things,when people know you have the right to defend yourself from assault without question,people act in a manner more befitting a polite society.

Certainly,the "other way" we've been "experimenting" with for the past 60 years or so hasn't been much of an improvement.Those that believe that natural law should take a back seat to government edict are wrong and are even in direct contradiction with the Founding Principles of this nation.

"It is strangely absurd to suppose that a million human beings collected together are not under the same moral laws which bind each of them separately."
-Thomas Jefferson

Ultimately,the idea that our legal system is the best in the world because we don't do things like they do them in Iran or some other third world nation and so we should all be thankful for such is a cop-out.
We should demand that our government abide by the law that governs and limits it,and demand that our inalienable rights and natural law be held in much higher regard then mala prohibita law.
Just because we don't allow the courts to cut off peoples body parts and such,is not reason to rest in our duty to be vigilant in the Cause of Liberty.

But it is what it is,and so of course,someone like yourself with the knowledge of how the "system" works should be given heed.

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Old 11-28-2011, 12:05 AM   #86
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You also raise the interesting aspect of mutual combat.
Personally,I believe that if two people "agree" to fight it out,then whatever ills befall them are their own damn fault.There cannot possibly be a "victim" in a situation where both parties enter into consensual combat,unless a third party is injured or has their property damaged.
If anyone is to be punished for THAT,then BOTH of them should be EQUALLY.


I agree....if a pair of knuckleheads want to show one another full frontal stupidity and beat one another to bloody senseless pulps...by all means. Find a nice patch of open ground or parking lot...and get it done.

Personally...if two of the same knuckleheads want to duel it out as in Dodge City...find a place with safe backdrops and get it done. The gene pool could use a bit of chlorine.

Literally dozens of dozens of times in my career, I had to go to calls because a pair of knuckleheads got into a mutual tussle. The one who got the worst of it, all of a sudden, decided HE was a victim and called 911, when in fact HE was most often the one who started the whole thing with his mouth anyway.

So...TRUST ME WHEN I SAY I PERSONALLY AGREE WITH YOU...the unfortuneate legal reality was...I couldn't advise that they just duke it out like men and whatever happened happened. PERIOD. Fist-to-fist, stick-to-stick...again...personally, I don't care.

I hated being a referee for a couple of douchenozzles that couldn't act like grownups. As often as not, I'd just let them talk themselves into jail (and they would), and they could share a cell for the weekend.

I hated being a referee for cousin-humpin'white-trash who would get to drinking, and slap the crap out of each other every weekend. He said...she said...one of them would lose one of their few remaining teeth...and guess who got the call to come and referee for them?????

I am BIG on personal responsibility. Like you, I have studied martial arts for over 20 years. I have ZERO to prove to anyone. I would rather talk a LONG time before going hands on. I practice sterling manners in all my interactions with others. Number one, because I was raised right, and number two...the hallmark of a real man is not how tough he can claim to be, but how strong he is on the inside.

Sadly....most of the rest of the oxygen theives on the planet don't follow that simple code of behavior and personal conduct.
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Old 11-28-2011, 12:35 AM   #87
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You know,I watch that show "48 hours" on TV sometimes,the one that shows homicide detectives solving real murders?
I steer clear of stuff like CSI and all the hollywood crap,and the reason why is that after seeing what kind of things REALLY happen the aggrandized storyline of such shows are just stupid.

Your right.
There are alot of really stupid people who do really stupid things.

Like 98% of that show is dealing with people who seem to be functionally retarded.

They kill over the stupidest reasons and also seem to have no care who gets caught in the crossfire.
I watched as one degenerate douchebag tried to pin a murder on his own mother.

What a turd.

However,i really do believe that the REASON so many people are like this,is a DIRECT RESULT of the way society is today.

Bring back the Wild West.

Tombstone was a better place to live then any major city today by a long shot.

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Old 11-28-2011, 02:54 AM   #88
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When I was a kid here in Arizona....(Did I really just type that?)

You NEVER disrespected a woman. If you did, her husband was very likely to lay an ass whuppin' on you that you'd never forget. When (IF) police showed up....shame on you for being a disrespectful turd...and that was pretty much the end of it.

If you called another man a liar...you were similarly very likely to get punched in the mouth.

Tucson was a very polite and nice town to grow up in. It was definitely NOT the liberal center of cosmic wierdness that is has become. People who lived here were FROM here...not the New York and Commiefornia transplants who seemed to re-make Tucson into their own image of what THEY thought it should be.

It was, in some ways, still the "wild west". That's one BIG reason why I no longer live in Tucson, and have moved to a small, old fashioned town. People around here still call ladies "ma'am" and hold doors, and everyone seems to know everyone, and I like it that way.

This is the kind of town where if you see a woman getting treated badly...a man WILL step in to help. It's not tolerated. There are a LOT of old line ranching and farming families here who still hold onto the old ways. I like it.

Back around Christmas of 1975...my grandfather owned a Chevron service station (mechanics, and by god real full service gas pumps) on Campbell Avenue just a bit north of Glenn. One Saturday morning, he opened the station and a pair of miscreants came in, produced a cheap pistol and demanded the money from the safe. Pap pulled out his Smith & Wesson Model 10 pencil barrel, and put three rounds into each of them. Within an hour, he was hosing the blood off the concrete floor, and was open for business again.

The Sheriff of Pima County actually came to the call. It took all of ten minutes to get Pap's statement, and get the bodies onto a meat wagon.

Pap hadn't been the victim of an ATTEMPTED robbery since 1954 when he blew a miscreant away at the pump with that same .38 which I now have in my safe.

Yeah...life WAS a whole lot different back then. And a WHOLE LOT BETTER as far as I am concerned.

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Old 11-28-2011, 03:17 AM   #89
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As the saying that some have on their signature says, "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6." In TN you can use leathal force if you feel your life or others around you are threatened but not to protect your property outside. If they are in your home they are a threat armed or unarmed if they are inside you don't have to make a distiction.
If they are in my home I will shoot to kill if they come at me with a weapon of any kind tire iron, knife or gun I will shoot to kill regardless of age. I'm past my fighting prime so I won't take the chance, if they will come at you with a weapon they will kill.

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Old 11-28-2011, 05:06 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murraywc
As the saying that some have on their signature says, "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6." In TN you can use leathal force if you feel your life or others around you are threatened but not to protect your property outside. If they are in your home they are a threat armed or unarmed if they are inside you don't have to make a distiction.
If they are in my home I will shoot to kill if they come at me with a weapon of any kind tire iron, knife or gun I will shoot to kill regardless of age. I'm past my fighting prime so I won't take the chance, if they will come at you with a weapon they will kill.
They have fairly recently had a home invasion shooting in memphis area where the home owner was injured, intruder was killed. Don't think the home owner even got any sideways looks from LE.

I've mentioned it before, there have also been 2 different cases in memphis of homes being defended with freaking swords to great effect, both intruders killed.

Can't help but smile when I think about that.
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