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Old 08-19-2011, 10:47 PM   #41
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Sec. 9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON.
(a) A person is justified in using deadly force against another:
(1) if the actor would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.31; and
(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force; or
(B) to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.

sorry to bring the Bla bla bla into this but it's what i do. so yes I would an have step in.

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Old 08-20-2011, 02:05 PM   #42
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I take that back , what about a few months ago when whats her name got shot in the head at the rally , did a man in the crowd shoot the shooter ?

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Old 08-20-2011, 03:29 PM   #43
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I take that back , what about a few months ago when whats her name got shot in the head at the rally , did a man in the crowd shoot the shooter ?
they wanted to, actually 2 of them thought about blowing his brains out but the crowd convinced them otherwise. in a big crowd shoulder to shoulder i imagine the quicker response would be to just tackle a mo-fo.

i understand the what ifs, story time is awesome. but im not really looking into CCW laws so much to research if i could get away with being a vigilante when im carrying. i mean if its happening in front of me ill give it a go. but if sh*ts going down say accross the street- sucks to be you man.
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Old 08-20-2011, 05:19 PM   #44
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Wow, so many scenario, hypotheticals and assumptions for a somewhat straightforward question. You have a gun for self defense and you train for accurate, reflexive self defense, close quarter shooting. So when do you shoot? When you need to defend yourself AND you have no other alternative. Where? Center mass just like you trained for, physics and anatomy will determine the outcome. Point is that you shoot until the threat is down, no more no less.

Bear in mind that most shoot or flee decisions are split second decisions, they do not occur in slow motion like in Hollywood and you will not have the time to analyze hundreds of variables. The stress will diminish your fine motor skills and you will rely almost completely on muscle memory developed by training, training and more training.

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Old 11-23-2011, 12:33 AM   #45
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Killing someone "just because you can" is seriusly messed up thinking.

That being said...

If you are not "morally" right in taking a life...you WILL be screwed up about it for a long time, maybe forever. If you're not screwed up about it...then there is something seriously wrong with your moral compass and the wiring in your head.

There is a vast gulf between morally and legally right. Had I not been 1005 MORALLY right each time I had to press that trigger...I would probably be a basket case right now.

If confronted by a teenager with a knife who poses a CREDIBLE threat...then legal and moral ground has been covered. However, the truth is MOST teens are going to **** themselves at the presence of an armed defender with a commanding voice and demeanor. I know this from many years of experience. However...one SHOULD BE READY TO TAKE IMMEDIATE DEFENSIVE ACTION JUST THE SAME AS WITH AN ADULT.

"Detached reflection is not demanded in the presence of an upraised knife." Oliver Wendell Holmes

Personally....Other than a teen, I would not warn an armed intruder inside or outside my home expecting to get compliance. I would warn them HOPING to get compliance...but the fact remains that a verbal warning robs you of some percentage of YOUR ability to defend your home, family, self. It's a call you have to make ON THE SPOT AND RIGHT THE **** NOW.

Would I shoot someone and dump them in a swamp? NO. Most emphatically NO. This is just like the BS advice about dropping a gun or knife on them, or dragging them inside. Pure, unadultrated hestafoit(horse****). Do it...go to prison for a LONG LONG time.

Really guys and gals...lethal force is no joke, and no time for hyperbole. I get the feeling that some around here have a hard-on to actually be able to get to shoot someone to fulfill some tiny-dick fantasy or try to prove you're some kind of badass. The truth is, if you have to label yourself a badass, or prove you are one....YOU AIN'T ONE.

Anyone who has ever had to use lethal force can tell you that even if you are 100% totally right, morally and legally...it is a bitch to live with. Nightmares, cold sweats, friends and family not looking at you the same way again are all a part of it. The nightmares come because your own subconscious is trying to sort out the most horrible thing it can imagine. I know, I have been there. I am probably the strongest person I know because of the awesome support system I have in my wife, my belief in God, a few very good and true friends, and fellow LE who had been there too and were there for me, and it screwed with my head.

Hell...nevermind. I will shut up now.

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Old 11-23-2011, 09:01 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by ArizonaLawman View Post
Killing someone "just because you can" is seriusly messed up thinking.

That being said...

If you are not "morally" right in taking a life...you WILL be screwed up about it for a long time, maybe forever. If you're not screwed up about it...then there is something seriously wrong with your moral compass and the wiring in your head.

There is a vast gulf between morally and legally right. Had I not been 1005 MORALLY right each time I had to press that trigger...I would probably be a basket case right now.

If confronted by a teenager with a knife who poses a CREDIBLE threat...then legal and moral ground has been covered. However, the truth is MOST teens are going to **** themselves at the presence of an armed defender with a commanding voice and demeanor. I know this from many years of experience. However...one SHOULD BE READY TO TAKE IMMEDIATE DEFENSIVE ACTION JUST THE SAME AS WITH AN ADULT.

"Detached reflection is not demanded in the presence of an upraised knife." Oliver Wendell Holmes

Personally....Other than a teen, I would not warn an armed intruder inside or outside my home expecting to get compliance. I would warn them HOPING to get compliance...but the fact remains that a verbal warning robs you of some percentage of YOUR ability to defend your home, family, self. It's a call you have to make ON THE SPOT AND RIGHT THE **** NOW.

Would I shoot someone and dump them in a swamp? NO. Most emphatically NO. This is just like the BS advice about dropping a gun or knife on them, or dragging them inside. Pure, unadultrated hestafoit(horse****). Do it...go to prison for a LONG LONG time.

Really guys and gals...lethal force is no joke, and no time for hyperbole. I get the feeling that some around here have a hard-on to actually be able to get to shoot someone to fulfill some tiny-dick fantasy or try to prove you're some kind of badass. The truth is, if you have to label yourself a badass, or prove you are one....YOU AIN'T ONE.

Anyone who has ever had to use lethal force can tell you that even if you are 100% totally right, morally and legally...it is a bitch to live with. Nightmares, cold sweats, friends and family not looking at you the same way again are all a part of it. The nightmares come because your own subconscious is trying to sort out the most horrible thing it can imagine. I know, I have been there. I am probably the strongest person I know because of the awesome support system I have in my wife, my belief in God, a few very good and true friends, and fellow LE who had been there too and were there for me, and it screwed with my head.

Hell...nevermind. I will shut up now.
Very good post. I hope it renews this thread with lots of opinions and points of view. THIS is what I struggle with. And I am 4'11" and even though I would be armed, I hope the adrenaline would cover the commanding voice and demeanor because a 4'11" person isn't very "scary". But I guarantee you my GP100 IS.

I have been told that my fear that I may have to someday shoot someone is healthy and those that would have no qualms, and in fact seem to welcome the opportunity are the ones that should be worried. Thank you for bringing up this thread and for posting a very eye opening and educational post.
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Old 11-23-2011, 01:38 PM   #47
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I remember very well the night I saw head lights pull into my driveway @ 2am and shut off followed by the sound of car doors closing . Knowing it was not any of my folks since they know to call me ahead of time I grabbed the closest gun to me . My trusty s&w k frame 22 . A quick check revealed that I had not reloaded it after shooting it last . *&%*&T* ! A quick reach into the ammo box for a handfull of rounds and I was on my way to the door .
I am thankful I grabbed a handfull b/c I was shaking so bad I had left a trail of them thru the house trying to load that wheel gun before I hit the door .
Im at the kitchen door now locked and loaded and I look out the window to see 2 flash lights at my barn , oh its on now buddy !
I bust open the kitchen door chuck norris style with sights set on the barn ,
HEY!! WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING !?
The response ......
Franklin county sheriffs department ! Put your gun down !
we are looking for someone who tried to break into a building a few houses up .
Damn guys you need to leave your lights on or something next time , I was ready to shoot you !

Looking back on it now , granted I was not into guns then like I am now , and the fact that all 30 somthing guns I have stay loaded , I was still scared and nervous knowing someone was on my property in the middle of the night . If they has so much as gone BOO ! I prob would have pull the trigger out of nervous twitch .

After my grandmother went to home someone busted out the patio doors on her house and ransacked the place . The S.O got there and I told him how I would have loved to been sitting on the other side with the scatter gun when they came thru that door .
He replied '' son , you would have $hit yourself when that brick came thru that glass '' . I replied , Your absolutely right ..

My dad does not keep any guns within reach , for the fact he says if he sees anyone on his property at night that he is going to shoot them . This coming from a man who killed 2 out of 5 inmates escaping from central one night I dont think he wants to re-live somthing like that again

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Old 11-23-2011, 02:23 PM   #48
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To your original post, the situation always dictates. Some here may recall me recounting the story of a righteous beat down I had to give about a year or so ago. I stopped for gas and directions at a little gas station in Tunica (when I hit the delta, with no landmarks, I get lost as hell) When I came back out, there was a homey trying to steal my truck. The D-bag apparently didn't know how to drive a stick shift, I saw the truck bucking and could smell burning clutch from across the lot. I dragged him out, was going to just drop it and let him run (I was also unarmed at the time, had just left school campus) but he proceeded to attack me, so I ended up beating him with a stick from the back of my truck (1X1 2 foot long oak) I left him bleeding and crying on the asphalt and I left the scene. It's not a good idea to leave the scene, but let's just say I don't fit in with the local populace to begin with.

I feel I would have been completely justified in shooting him dead. In the end I'm glad I couldn't (remember, I left straight from campus), reason being that the kid was only about 15, and the situation was easily handled with less than lethal force. Other than an extremely sore knee where he kicked me, and a couple of bruises on my body from when he thought he was gonna whup my @$$, I came out just fine. He probably ended up with a number of stitches all over his face and head (did I mention the stick was 1X1 oak, and had some sharp edges?) and likely quite a few bruises, probably much worse than mine, but in the end, he and I both still got to go home to our families. If I ever see him again, and yes I remember what he looks like, I'll have to ask him if he learned a lesson.

You'd think he'd have noticed the "Marine Veteran" sticker across the windshield...

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Old 11-23-2011, 02:32 PM   #49
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This is why you need to train often and train as realisitcally as possible...not just punching paper bullseye targets. There are so many factors that go into you staying a free man based on your decision to shoot someone. You need to know your state's laws as well...one of the most overlooked areas of training is the legal side of things. Everyone likes shooting targets, but no one likes reading law books and contacting attorneys and other people who actually know the law.

I had a long conversation after class one day with one of the prosecutors that taught various laws at my LE academy. One the main topics he covered was justification of use of force. Lot of very gray areas. It really depends on who gets your case and if they feel you were justified or not. That will be what determines if they pursue criminal charges against you for the shooting. Criminal charges are the ones I really worry about...the family of the scum bag you killed is almost always going to bring a civil case against you, just make sure you have a good lawyer for that one. One of the scenarios I asked him about was the big man scenario...it's one of the most popular. I asked what if my wife, who is around 5'4 maybe 130ish was confronted by a man who was 6'8 and weighed 300 lbs who made it clear that he was going to beat her for whatever reason. Would she be justified in shooting if he came at her? Even though he produced no weapon and did not say he intended to kill her, rape her, etc? His response, "The law says that you can only match force with equal force, or one step above in some situations to gain compliance (i.e. pepper spray, tazer, stun gun, baton, etc to an unarmed person) based on the totality of the circumstances (very gray area lawyer talk)" but in that sitiuation he personally would not pursue charges against the shooter. Reason being this: A man of that size and power could cause massive injury, potentially even death, to a person of her stature using just his hands and feet. He then said it would be important to show proof of that so it would take a lot of finding cases where someone was killed by blows to the head...yada yada...lots of lawyer talk followed. Basically, hands and feet can be seen and used as deadly weapons, but a TON of other factors will go into it.

Even though, this particular prosecutor is a pro gun, pro self defense guy...eveyone wil be different so make sure you're as legal as possible when you shoot. He also said that just pulling your gun because you don't want to possibly take a beating from a guy that you pissed off will land you in prison. Things such as who initiated contact, the bad guys demeanor, criminal history (even though there is no way for you to know that at the time, defense will still use it), size and apparent skill level when compared to your own (you need to be able to clearly paint a picture of why you belived this), did he appear to be under the influence of stimulant drugs that would potentially negate your own physical force, and tons of other factors...like I said, it was a very long conversation that may have cleared up some things for me, but also showed me a lot of gray areas in the legal system. Just hope you get one of the good guys working your case and a good jury if it goes to trial.

One last thing he said. If you're going to carry a lethal means of defense like a gun, why not carry a non-lethal form, such as OC spray? I have been doing this every since I started carrying my gun for defense because my instructor said the same thing the prosecutor did and let me tell you, that spray sucks a lot and will deter most people from their intended actions...Think about how good it will look if it goes to trial and can be shown that you attempted non-lethal means of self defense before using deadly force only as a last resort.

One more side note...there is nothing wrong with running away if possible. Not saying run away from your own house or family, but there is no reason to fight/shoot someone if you don't have to. Fighting when there is no reason to does not make you a bada**...it makes you a hot head that may end up facing charges down the road. Takes a bigger and smarter man to avoid trouble than to jump into it trying to prove something.

Two scenarios...you tell me which one would be better in your quest to remain a free man with a felony free record.

One: Bad guy (regardless of his size, apparent skill level, etc) comes up to you and says I'm going to beat your a**, or is in your home unarmed and you confront him, or any other situation where he has not produced a deadly weapon or instrument capable of causing death or serious bodily harm at this time. He begins advacing toward you, you pull your gun and shoot him 3 times center mass and he dies. You may be able to have it ruled justified depending on who gets the case and how well the reports are written, statements are made, etc....but odds are this one is going to trial and the chances are good that you're in trouble.

Two: Same thing, but when he advances in your direction you spray him with some good OC spray right in his eyes/nose/mouth and attempt to run away, hoping that the spray will keep him out of the fight long enough for you to get away and call police, but he ends up being one of the very few people out there it does not effect, he sprints toward you and is clearly faster than you are and is gaining fast, you do a side step offline as you turn and face him, you pull your firearm as a last resort, you warn him by saying things such as "I'm armed, stay back", he sees your gun pointing at him and hears your loud and clear verbal commands (as do any witnesses close by) but continues his rage and comes at you...you shoot him 3 times in the chest and he dies.

I'm saying #2 is the better looking case any day. Having a non-lethal means of defense is a great tool to show escalation of force.

I've talked a lot here, and I'm sure there are plenty of people who can poke holes in what I've said, this is just the way I see it based on what I've been taught and read over the years. Bottom line is we're all on the same side and need to be as well prepared as we possibly can.

If you're not 110% ready to shoot someone in defense then don't buy or carry a gun. BUT, make sure you do everything in your power to ensure a justified shooting...do not shoot just because you think it will be cool like it is in the movies. These things happen FAST, that is why we must train, train, train, and train some more...then when you think you've trained enough, follow it up with more training/studying of all aspects of defense...not just the fun shooting stuff.

Semper Fi.

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Old 11-23-2011, 02:39 PM   #50
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This is why you need to train often and train as realisitcally as possible...not just punching paper bullseye targets. There are so many factors that go into you staying a free man based on your decision to shoot someone. You need to know your state's laws as well...one of the most overlooked areas of training is the legal side of things. Everyone likes shooting targets, but no one likes reading law books and contacting attorneys and other people who actually know the law.

I had a long conversation after class one day with one of the prosecutors that taught various laws at my LE academy. One the main topics he covered was justification of use of force. Lot of very gray areas. It really depends on who gets your case and if they feel you were justified or not. That will be what determines if they pursue criminal charges against you for the shooting. Criminal charges are the ones I really worry about...the family of the scum bag you killed is almost always going to bring a civil case against you, just make sure you have a good lawyer for that one. One of the scenarios I asked him about was the big man scenario...it's one of the most popular. I asked what if my wife, who is around 5'4 maybe 130ish was confronted by a man who was 6'8 and weighed 300 lbs who made it clear that he was going to beat her for whatever reason. Would she be justified in shooting, even though he produced no weapon and did not say he intended to kill her, rape her, etc? His response, "The law says that you can only match force with equal force, or one step above in some situations to gain compliance (i.e. pepper spray, tazer, stun gun, baton, etc to an unarmed person) based on the totality of the circumstances (very gray area lawyer talk)" but in that sitiuation he personally would not pursue charges against the shooter. Reason being this: A man of that size and power could cause massive injury, potentially even death, to a person of her stature using just his hands and feet. He then said it would be important to show proof of that so it would take a lot of finding cases where someone was killed by blows to the head...yada yada...lots of lawyer talk followed. Basically, hands and feet can be seen and used as deadly weapons, but a TON of other factors will go into it.

Even though, this particular prosecutor is a pro gun, pro self defense guy...eveyone wil be different so make sure you're as legal as possible. He also said that just pulling your gun because you don't want to possibly take a beating from a guy that you pissed off will land you in prison. Things such as the bad guys demeanor, criminal history (even though there is no way for you to know that at the time, defense will still use it), size and apparent skill level when compared to your own (you need to be able to clearly paint a picture of why you belived this), did he appear to be under the influence of stimulant drugs that would potentially negate your own physical force, and tons of other factors...like I said, it was a very long conversation that may have cleared up some things for me, but also showed me a lot of gray areas in the legal system. Just hope you get one of the good guys working your case and a good jury if it goes to trial.

One last thing he said. If you're going to carry a lethal means of defense like a gun, why not carry a non-lethal form, such as OC spray? I have been doing this for every since I started carrying my gun for defense because my instructor said the same thing the prosecutor did and let me tell you, that spray sucks a lot and will deter most people from their intended actions...Think about how good it will look if it goes to trial and can be shown that you attempted non-lethal means of self defense before resorting to deadly force only as a last resort.

One more side note...there is nothing wrong with running away if possible. Not saying run away from your own house or family, but there is no reason to fight/shoot someone if you don't have to. Fighting when there is no reason to does not make you a bada**...it makes you a hot head that may end up facing charges down the road. Takes a bigger and smarter man to avoid trouble than to jump into it trying to prove something.

Two scenarios...you tell me which one would be better in your quest to remain a free man with a felony free record.

One: Guy (regardless of his size, apparent skill level, etc) comes up to you and says I'm going to beat your a**, or is in your home unarmed and your confront him, or any other situation where he has not produced a deadly weapon or instrument capable of causing death or serious bodily harm at this time. He begins advacing toward you, you pull your gun and shoot him 3 times center mass and he dies. You may be able to have it ruled justified depending on who gets the case and how well the reports are written, statements are made, etc....but odds are this one is going to trial and the chances are good that you're in trouble.

Two: Same thing, but when he advances in your direction you spray him with some good OC spray right in his eyes/nose/mouth and attempt to run away, hoping that the spray will keep him out of the fight long enough for you to get away and call police, but he ends up being one of the very few people out there it does not effect, he sprints toward you and is clearly faster than you are and is gaining fast, you do a side step offline as you turn and face him, you pull your firearm as a last resort, you warn him by saying things such as "I'm armed, stay back", he sees your gun pointing at him and hears your loud and clear verbal commands (as do any witnesses close by) but continues his rage and comes at you...you shoot him 3 times in the chest and he dies.

I'm saying #2 is the better looking case any day. Having a non-lethal means of defense is a great tool to show escalation of force.

I've talked a lot here, and I'm sure there are plenty of people who can poke holes in what I've said, this is just the way I see it based on what I've been taught and read over the years. Bottom line is we're all on the same side and need to be as well prepared as we possibly can.

If you're not 110% ready to shoot someone in defense then don't buy or carry a gun. BUT, make sure you do everything in your power to ensure a justfied shooting...do not shoot just because you think it will be cool like it is in the movies. These things happen FAST, that is why we must train, train, train, and train some more...then when you think you've trained enough, follow it up with more training/studying of all aspects of defense...not just the fun shooting stuff.

Semper Fi.
Tons of case law has held that a man without a weapon is still a lethal threat to a woman. It is called "cultural predispositioning". Men are aggressive and strong. Women are fair and weak. 79% of rapes occur with NO weapon. Rape is not about sex, it is about violence. 14% of rapes occur with a contact weapon used...knife, rope for strangulation, etc...etc...etc..only 7% of rapes are committed with a gun.

So, as you can see....an unarmed woman against a man who brings intent, and means to an assault IS a lethal threat.
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