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Old 08-16-2011, 03:00 PM   #21
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Im only 28 with a youngs family but I have help a few kids get off the bad road . I know here in NC they just made the castle doctrin law alot better but the burden of proof still lies with the d.a not the property owner . IF ,If the situation permits I would much rather beat the living hell out of someone trying to steal or doing property damage than to shoot them . Just simple to me , beat them and if the situation permits again have a good long talk with them and send them on . I know that is far fetched but . We had a incident here a few weeks ago where so thugs were fighting and one ran into the rd and got hit , the rest of his homies drug the poor guy out of the car and beat him almost to death and his daughter , passer bys were helpless . If one had a gun what could or should he had done ?
Also two 15yo thugs beat a lil old white lady with a brick to steal her car for a joy ride . In that situation I would feel more than justified killing them . I guess it all boils down to the nature of the crime and weather or not the offender is violent in nature . I used to be a hulgan too but we did more harmless pranks than anything like swapping tags on all the cars on the street lol . If someone had caught us and had a gun we would have doo dooed all over ourselves and prob never did it again . Sometimes a good good scare is all they need .
Not to get long winded but we had a home owner pull up to find two low lifes loading up his lawn equipment , when he saw them he never stopped and pinned one between the cars and killed him . It took a few weeks for him to be cleared under the pretense he "" lost controls of the truck "" but still the time in between must have sucked not knowing if your going to do time or not . I forgot to mention if ever see someone load my stuff in their car I wont stop either until either my truck or theirs is totaled

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Old 08-16-2011, 04:21 PM   #22
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i missed where exactly it said they advanced. :P..... prettey sure it says...You come home mid-day and find un-welcome people in your house doing some shopping , and are unarmed and pose no threat...

hmm shooting someone that poses no threat doesnt seem to be ethical
You come home mid-day and find un-welcome people in your house doing some shopping , and are unarmed and pose no threat . A: hold them @ gunpoint , they go to jail and get off with a slap B: they " come " at you and you shoot them anyway or C: pop one in there knees to teach them a lesson and never call the cops ?

Nope, he said they come at you, they become a threat to you (or any other reasonable man) at that point in time because the only logical explanation for one or more burglars to approach an armed homeowner or police officer whose holding a firearm on them would be to disarm them and use their own firearm against them, or possibly trying to move in close enough to use a knife, either way any reasonable man can articulate why he believed them to be a threat and in fear of his life. That's without even having a Castle Doctrine Law.

There's nothing unethical, immoral or illegal about it, just insuring your survival at best, or dying while trying to do so at worst.

I'd never shoot another human being just to "teach them a lesson", if I don't believe they are a true threat I'm not shooting them. No matter whether they ran, surrendered or wound up forcing me to shoot them I'd call 9-1-1 (if my wife wasn't home and already on the phone with them, which always helps BTW because everything is recorded and the dispatcher can testify as well)...I heard him shout, "I'm armed, stay back or I'll shoot, drop the knife, gun, etc."
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Old 08-16-2011, 04:27 PM   #23
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Im only 28 with a youngs family but I have help a few kids get off the bad road . I know here in NC they just made the castle doctrin law alot better but the burden of proof still lies with the d.a not the property owner . IF ,If the situation permits I would much rather beat the living hell out of someone trying to steal or doing property damage than to shoot them . Just simple to me , beat them and if the situation permits again have a good long talk with them and send them on . I know that is far fetched but . We had a incident here a few weeks ago where so thugs were fighting and one ran into the rd and got hit , the rest of his homies drug the poor guy out of the car and beat him almost to death and his daughter , passer bys were helpless . If one had a gun what could or should he had done ?
Also two 15yo thugs beat a lil old white lady with a brick to steal her car for a joy ride . In that situation I would feel more than justified killing them . I guess it all boils down to the nature of the crime and weather or not the offender is violent in nature . I used to be a hulgan too but we did more harmless pranks than anything like swapping tags on all the cars on the street lol . If someone had caught us and had a gun we would have doo dooed all over ourselves and prob never did it again . Sometimes a good good scare is all they need .
Not to get long winded but we had a home owner pull up to find two low lifes loading up his lawn equipment , when he saw them he never stopped and pinned one between the cars and killed him . It took a few weeks for him to be cleared under the pretense he "" lost controls of the truck "" but still the time in between must have sucked not knowing if your going to do time or not . I forgot to mention if ever see someone load my stuff in their car I wont stop either until either my truck or theirs is totaled
Shoot the thugs to stop them from continuing their unlawful assault. Yes, same thing with the car jackers beating the owner of a vehicle to steal it. I really fail to see any difference between the two scenarios, unlawful violent assault is unlawful violent assault.
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Old 08-16-2011, 05:24 PM   #24
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Reading through all of post, the questing I must ask to the ones that have decided to pull the trigger, are you now mentally prepared for the aftermath?

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Old 08-16-2011, 06:53 PM   #25
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Reading through all of post, the questing I must ask to the ones that have decided to pull the trigger, are you now mentally prepared for the aftermath?
yeaaaa, im having a problem with trying to judge what people deem to the purpose of using a firearm. with buying one you should understand the gravity that you buy it knowing that if you have to use it, chances are that you will take a life when you deploy it.

but then i read such things as "property damage" or "creditable threat". what exactly are the occasions people pull out guns for? if there is a threat, out in the open, and all it pulls out is a fist with some skin on it, thats not a firearm situation. If some little b**tard has thrown a brick through you car window, or smashed your floor to ceilings with a rock, again, not a threat situation. even if some weird ass law says you can...you dont.

if the thought to some that is a firearm takes the place of all personal defense mechanisms, you are in the wrong. you dont buy a gun because you are afraid of confrontations and cant fight, thats what a karate class is for. if the threat is a 6'7" 250 lbs walking tree trunk mma fool, and all he has is fists, prepare to get your ass handed to you, or run. even if the law says it is, that is not a creditable threat aganst your life. thats a pick up your teeth and drink your shame away threat.

when i say "if you cant handle the thought you might take a life to preserve your own, buy a baseball bat." its not an insult, hell i have a boston beatstick myself, match the right tool to the right job.
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Old 08-16-2011, 07:13 PM   #26
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Let me put on my legal hat here.

A couple instances where one could justifiably shoot attackers that appear to be unarmed-

If someone is unarmed,but backed by 8 friends that they brought with them for the sole purpose of going after you- that constitutes a "disparity of force" and COULD be raised as justification in your court case to shoot.
No way a mob of people physically attacking one or two others does not constitute a serious threat to the continued existence of the intended victims.
Some states still have laws about 'mob assaults' based on the history of racial attacks made in mob form against blacks,which resulted in serious bodily injury and sometimes the death of the victim.


If someone is unusually large and trained in the martial arts,so much so that they pose a serious threat to life and limb of the person they are going after with just heir bare hands,the same issue "disparity of force" is evident.
An example would be USMC's 6'7" 250lbs MMA dude going after a 5'8" 165lbs desk jockey who golfs in his spare time.

Only a malicious prosecution based on antigun sentiment being pursued against defendants who saved their own arses from being the "victims" of such disparity of force,but are now forced to rely on a public defender could garner a "conviction".

Even then- its not like your being 'convicted' of robbery,rape,or murder.

If your not using your weapons to further a criminal pursuit that involves the violation of the rights of others,to hell with whatever this libtarded government says is "the law".

In the eyes of "the law" your a "criminal"....but in the eyes of Provence-

Your righteous.

And in the end-

Its better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6.

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Old 08-16-2011, 07:40 PM   #27
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If someone is unusually large and trained in the martial arts,so much so that they pose a serious threat to life and limb of the person they are going after with just heir bare hands,the same issue "disparity of force" is evident.
An example would be USMC's 6'7" 250lbs MMA dude going after a 5'8" 165lbs desk jockey who golfs in his spare time.
but yet again my friend, i digress from using the law to back a situation and use common sense. you are in a fist fight with an overly large man and you have no CQB skills...like at all. maybe the most you have is making a rubber band bow and arrow with paperclips at the office. if your first thought in a fight like that (you frickin stepped on the douche bags new nikes or something) outside the home, is to pull out a firearm. you dont deserve to carry one. i have read too about these average joes going to jail for defending themselves. and when you dig deeper, they deserve to be locked up cause 99% of the time, the situation did not call for the use of a firearm. but he used it cause he thought thats what the law said he could use it for.

and the man i described...disparity of force? please, those retarded cage monkeys fight for pride and money, take a hit and lay down-fight over, theyre just happy they "won". id rather fight 10 "trained" MMA fighters anyday over a 5'8" 165 lbs man who will fight to survive.

-and by 10 i mean like, 1 at a time. 10 half naked dudes wanting to grapple at once seems alittle 'mo.
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Old 08-16-2011, 08:14 PM   #28
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I dont know brother- I'd say for sure your pushing the limit on reality regarding some of those MMA guys.
Sure,these days an MMA fighter can be a dime a dozen kind of deal,no real heart but alot of gym and arrogance.
But if you think someone like Chuck Liddel or Bas Ruttan is NOT a serious threat to even a 'decently' trained guy of even the same or even a bit bigger size,your wrong.
Those kinds of dudes are genetically,mentally and physically gifted.

You DO NOT want to get into it with someone like that thinking the way you are in your above post.

As far as the court system goes,time and time again we see the corruption,the favoritism,the total lack of anything resembling "justice".
Murderers run free while those that dare defy the tax system spend 35 years in a federal prison.
If you have enough money you can afford to buy a get out of jail free card after committing the most brutal murders.
Rapists and child molesters get set free and form bootie bandit colonies,they have to report in and wear ankle monitors but they still manage to victimize more innocents.

All the while liberal courts are letting murderers and rapists free,they are busy 'convicting' people of the egregious crime of actually shooting some piece of $h!t that cant seem to figure out that he should just leave other people and their families and loved ones alone.

And they practically squeal with glee when they get to 'prosecute' some poor bastage who had a shotgun with too short a barrel (that is if the guy lives thru the federal goon squad 'arresting' him) and no government permission,and their little piggy eyes light up with malicious exuberance when some guys semiautomatic rifle malfunctions and they get to dine on the legal clusterphuck that follows.

Or their busy racking up 'easy wins' and tossing people in the clink for the mere possession of weapons because they themselves believe that such laws 'keep society safe',even tho they know damn well that there the ones giving all these rapists and killers second,third,and even fourth chances to victimize yet more innocent people.

99% percent of "cases" involve the violation of some stupid mala prohibita 'drug war' law and other victimless crime bull$h!t.
And of the cases that involve self defense-its not their job to sanctify it with their rote picking apart of events that they themselves may never encounter as they live behind gated communities and armed guards.

They dont care about you,they just figure "let them eat cake" and to hell with you.

Under our Constitution,these people don't get to make myriad and sundry laws defining when they think its ok for you to defend yourself.
You have the natural right of self defense and its on them to prove you actually committed a crime-either you shot some clown trying to take whats yours,hurt you or yours,or you did it because your a real criminal who's making armed robbery or some other criminal pursuit his profession.

Its that simple.

But not to the lawyers.

They have to feed their families too,ya know.

these evil swine are feeding at the trough of our blood and bones,of our usurped Republic and they wipe their fat arses with the Constitution when they're done.........

And if the law was applied judiciously and simply,as the natural law is- they'd all be out of a job.

This isn't a 'justice' system.

These people don't respect the laws that bind them.
They are above the laws they make that we must obey.

Its a legal system- and those that make the rules,are the law.

Seriously- its gotten to the point where one state supreme court or something recently handed down a verdict that says that citizens may not use force to defend their homes from agents of the state even if those agents are acting unlawfully and literally invading the home.

Tell me thats not the court protecting its own.By law their supposed to be IMPARTIAL.

*knock,knock*

This is a glaring sign of REALITY- its knocking on your door time to answer it.

In the Peoples Demokratik Socialist Nanny State of Amerika- all comrades are equal,just some are more equal than others,comrade.

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Old 08-16-2011, 08:32 PM   #29
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i agree with your take on the laws and the ties that bind. but its not always the judges you must worry about. all you have to do is convince 12 people. and if a lady in flordia can kill her kid to go party and get away with it. being just a quarter as smart goes a long way. it is easier to stay out of trouble than it is to get out of trouble. when looking at how people get away with things it is easy to presume you can to, and its not fair "why cant i" syndrome. it is easy to get what you want and work within the laws when you get smart instead of angry. if they want to play games, good, i have a few of my own. let them pass legislature, i can always work around it-legally.

but to continue the debate i loved having with my beefcaked marines-


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Originally Posted by KalashnikovJosh View Post
I dont know brother- I'd say for sure your pushing the limit on reality regarding some of those MMA guys.
Sure,these days an MMA fighter can be a dime a dozen kind of deal,no real heart but alot of gym and arrogance.
But if you think someone like Chuck Liddel or Bas Ruttan is NOT a serious threat to even a 'decently' trained guy of even the same or even a bit bigger size,your wrong.
Those kinds of dudes are genetically,mentally and physically gifted.
..there not a creditable threat because fighting them dosent mean my life. im going to lose teeth, get some limb broken, probably get knocked the hell out. but once one of those happen, fights over, and im still alive. so me still breathing is a win in my book. they are gifted and talented as all hell. but they are trained to fight. not to kill. i may be 25, but i got out of fighting for pride back when i was 16. they can push and shove and call me whatever name they want. dont really care. want to get a lick in to show your a bad ass, go ahead sweetheart, ive had worse. ill save what i got when someone branishes a weapon, even if it is a pen in a threating manner. there is no such thing as a fair fight, and i dont plan on ever fighting fair.
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Old 08-16-2011, 10:21 PM   #30
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A guy who's trained like some of the fighters you see in MMA can accidentally seriously maim or kill someone very easily.

A really big,but untrained guy,going after a much smaller man -also untrained- can also very easily accidentally seriously injure or kill.

A mob of morons NOT trained in anything intent on doing nothing more than satisfying their urge to "get even against whitey",like the mobs recently terrorizing certain inner cities lately- can very easily do the same.
These threats do in fact represent an immediate threat to life and limb whether thats their intention or not.

thats what "disparity of force" is all about.

But "disparity of force" is a legalese term that apples unevenly in todays courts based on the other nonsensical aspects of these institutions- the whims and fancy of judges,persecutors and juries.

At the heart of the matter lies Natural Law and its total lack of effect in todays legal system.

If anyone,bigger smaller,trained,in a mob,whatever-

comes to do harm to a person,that person,by natural law,has the inalienable and inarguable right to self defense.

Imagine,if you will,the effect that could have on society- if those inclined to commit violence for the sake of violence KNEW that they forfeit their own rights the moment they trample the rights of others,and their intended victims have no need to worry about a corrupt,ridiculous system going after them for merely defending themselves,and can use any amount of force they choose to defend themselves,their loved ones,or their property- I believe that those intent on committing such infractions of other peoples natural rights would either have to be smart enough to give pause to their actions and seriously consider another line of work,or they would be stupid enough to be eliminated from the gene pool.

We would live in a very polite society indeed.

Truly free people have the natural right to self defense and defense of their loved ones and property,and they need no permission form the courts,the judicial system or otherwise to act to so so.

Some might say this would bring back the "wild west".
Well i'd take Dodge City over Detroit any day of the year.

Or some may think this might provoke people to claim self defense after committing a cold blooded murder.
Nonsense.
If the facts prove that you weren't acting to defend yourself from someone who came after you or yours,its murder.

Plain and simple.

There is a bold faced simplicity to Natural Law,a simplicity which negates the need for high priced defense attorneys,hotshot prosecutors, and reams upon reams of "laws" that would literally put alot of folks with "law" degrees in the poor house.

And thats just it.

The legal system in this nation is big business.
Big business that feeds like a vulture on the rotting corpse of our Republic,which was founded by men who believed fervently in Natural Law.

So now we have juries educated by the pooblik skewl system and spoon fed ignorance by the main stream media,"reality" TV and jerry springer dispensing a total blasphemy of what simply cannot be called "justice" in case after case where those with powerful attorneys can murder their wives and children with impunity and those that dare to simply defend themselves but cannot afford the favor of the "law" go to prison- because their public pretender cant -or more likely wont because of the cost- put on the dog and pony show necessary to entertain the jury enough to defend their client.

Courtrooms are a mockery of justice in this nation where putting on a show at high cost for 12 "useful idiots" can get cold blooded murders set free and otherwise innocent folk hung if they can't afford this unique and twisted brand of "justice".

Politicians publicly swagger when they don't pay their taxes while the 'mundanes' go to prison with stiffer sentences than baby rapers and murderers for the same offense- if the rapists and killers get sentenced to anything at all.

Once again- some comrades are more equal than others,and to hell with the Natural Law that truly applies equally to all despite their social,political,or financial standing.

For all intents and purposes- it is better to be alive and incarcerated than dead,but by far it is better,I agree 110%,to just keep your head down and try to stay out of the mix.

Me,personally- I'll let people get away with screaming in my face,cussing me out,whatever,and I'll walk away.I'll probably even walk if someone punches me or spits at me.If I can get away from a situation,I will.

Better that than feed the beast known as the "justice" system.

Thats really not the way it SHOULD be,but if wishes and wants were candy and nuts it'd be Christmas every day.

But if I feel that my life or the life of those I care about are in danger,I'm going to war.

And damn the torpedoes.

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