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Old 03-30-2013, 11:14 PM   #81
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And all of this childish nonsense about armed resistance serves no useful purpose, but exacerbates the problem and mistrust.
Agreed it's been proven that the government is afraid of us already so we don't need to be talking about it unless it's time for it then we won't be here talking about it.
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Old 03-30-2013, 11:56 PM   #82
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No, Tack, I meant to suggest that you put a hole through the engines of the fighters and bombers when they're on the ground with a heavy sniping rifle. That's the only way a bunch of rebels armed with rifles are gonna have a snowball's chance in hell against a F-22 or B-52. Replacement aircraft engines are hard to get and expensive. Aircraft waiting on engines are typically down for at least a week. A squadron will generally have spare avionics and sometimes a spare sensor system (RADAR/IR/EO), but spare engines are rarely available.

From what I've seen, our airfields are very lightly protected. From that standpoint, it is possible to infiltrate them. The attack would have to be a surprise, well rehearsed, and coordinated. That kind of thing simply won't happen without someone catching wind of it.

To suggest that it's possible to shoot down fixed wing jet aircraft with rifles is pure fantasy that only highly delusional people would believe. Even Stinger missiles are mostly military fantasy come to fruition to waste taxpayer money. You can shoot down helicopters with them but modern fixed wing tactical fighter are simply too fast and the engagement window is too small, not to mention that SOP is to fly right at the edge of the engagement envelope and drop precision guided bombs.

The same principle applies with armored vehicles. You can't kill the vehicle with a rifle, but you can easily destroy the radio antenna, electro-optical ports (thermal/night vision/visual), and shoot the crew if they aren't buttoned up. If you can get close enough, you can set a fire atop the engine intake.

Viet Nam only proved that the American people did not want to fight the Vietnamese.

As far as the Arab Spring is concerned, they're still fighting over there amongst themselves and last time I checked, the largest standing army over there lasted about a week against our military during both go-rounds. There's a difference between fighting a third world dictator and the commander in chief of the most powerful military force in the world. To think otherwise is foolish.

I agree that defense of liberty is always the right course of action, but liberty must be a principle for which the majority of the population are in agreement with and are willing to defend. I don't think that's the case anymore. I think lots of people in this country have no problem with a dictator as long as he's "their kind of dictator". I only see dictators and make no distinction regarding which political party hatched them.

Between having an AR-15 and fighting our government over the right to own a 6 pound chunk of finely machined steel, aluminum, and plastic, I guess I'll have to acquiesce to their demands if they want to confiscate it.

I have children and while principles seem nice, my first responsibility is to them. Principles don't much play into my decision making process regarding what to own and use to defend their right to live.

If the government passes a law you don't like, then elect officials who will repeal the law. Killing members of your own government because you want to own certain types of weapons isn't taking a principled stand, it's a pissing contest with someone who holds more water than an elephant. It may make perfect sense to everyone else on this forum, but it just doesn't make sense to me.

Even if it was possible to resist without being immediately killed, even if it was possible to remove the military from the equation, even if it were possible to "march on Washington". After you get rid of the dictator, then what? If anyone has been paying attention, the candidates for power in the Middle East and the Banana Republics after a revolution are ALL dictators. The last strong man standing generally isn't a benevolent and democratic leader of men.

Like I said before, use the ballot boxes before the ammunition boxes. When the ballot boxes no longer reflect the will of the people, then we can consider using the ammunition boxes, for whatever good that will do.
My one question is, why would you show your plans on an open forum? Now, if anything were to happen, they not only have a pretty good idea of more areas to beef up security, but also of who to keep a closer eye on.

Excuse me while I go and fold me a tinfoil hat....................
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Old 03-31-2013, 02:25 AM   #83
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My one question is, why would you show your plans on an open forum? Now, if anything were to happen, they not only have a pretty good idea of more areas to beef up security, but also of who to keep a closer eye on.

Excuse me while I go and fold me a tinfoil hat....................
Nothing I pointed out is in any way unknown or mysterious to anyone in the military or law enforcement. One of the things you figure out pretty quick in the military is just how vulnerable you really are. Our military relies mostly on the notion that the people are on their side and no one would be stupid enough to attack a US military base. The thinking hasn't changed much since WWII and, unfortunately, has cost a lot of lives. Even the security after 9/11 was mostly more for show than to maintain capability.

I have emphatically attempted to dissuade people from carrying out such acts while pointing out that running around and shooting guys that rappel out of little black helicopters is not going to win a war against our government, which is exactly what's in store for us if thousands of gun owners decided to go march on DC while toting their rifles.

I tried to outline a few realistic and survivable tactics that a bunch of overweight and out of shape civilians with hunting rifles could possibly pull off in their wildest dreams while pointing out how low and unlikely any long term survivability actually is.

Until you have communications, air superiority, artillery and mortars, and perhaps a few combat vehicles you can expect to have your rear end handed to you in just about every engagement.

So, shooting at little black helicopters or little black clad men rappelling from little black helicopters is a really dumb idea. Putting holes through the engine intakes or exhausts while the little black helicopters are hovering or, preferably, on the ground is a much better idea.

The F-22 costs more than $250 million dollars, is incredibly fast, can evade the most modern sensor suites, and has considerable firepower- but one .50 caliber hole through either engine later and it's a paperweight. Every piece of military hardware, no matter how sophisticated or seemingly powerful, has its weak points and vulnerabilities.

Trust me, the government knows all of this already. If you ever bothered to pay attention to the force protection briefs while you were in (assuming you served in the military at some point in the past 10 years or so), you'd know that protection of assets and personnel is always on the unit commander's mind.

The government personnel who wear uniforms and/or badges are not the problem (at least not the overwhelming portion of the problem). The government personnel that wear suits, smile on TV while telling you about how they are going to rob you blind, and go around kissing babies are the ones that concern me the most.

I think lots of people "think out loud" about this because they really have no idea what they're actually contemplating doing or, quite possibly, because they're not firing on all cylinders.
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Old 03-31-2013, 02:50 AM   #84
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If there was an organizer effort by the people to take a stand, I would show up with my rifle-hoping for peace but ready for war.
If you want peace prepare for war~ Frank Castle
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Old 03-31-2013, 02:52 AM   #85
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Im ready for whatever happens as are most of us

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Old 03-31-2013, 03:09 AM   #86
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Nothing I pointed out is in any way unknown or mysterious to anyone in the military or law enforcement. One of the things you figure out pretty quick in the military is just how vulnerable you really are. Our military relies mostly on the notion that the people are on their side and no one would be stupid enough to attack a US military base. The thinking hasn't changed much since WWII and, unfortunately, has cost a lot of lives. Even the security after 9/11 was mostly more for show than to maintain capability.

I have emphatically attempted to dissuade people from carrying out such acts while pointing out that running around and shooting guys that rappel out of little black helicopters is not going to win a war against our government, which is exactly what's in store for us if thousands of gun owners decided to go march on DC while toting their rifles.

I tried to outline a few realistic and survivable tactics that a bunch of overweight and out of shape civilians with hunting rifles could possibly pull off in their wildest dreams while pointing out how low and unlikely any long term survivability actually is.

Until you have communications, air superiority, artillery and mortars, and perhaps a few combat vehicles you can expect to have your rear end handed to you in just about every engagement.

So, shooting at little black helicopters or little black clad men rappelling from little black helicopters is a really dumb idea. Putting holes through the engine intakes or exhausts while the little black helicopters are hovering or, preferably, on the ground is a much better idea.

The F-22 costs more than $250 million dollars, is incredibly fast, can evade the most modern sensor suites, and has considerable firepower- but one .50 caliber hole through either engine later and it's a paperweight. Every piece of military hardware, no matter how sophisticated or seemingly powerful, has its weak points and vulnerabilities.

Trust me, the government knows all of this already. If you ever bothered to pay attention to the force protection briefs while you were in (assuming you served in the military at some point in the past 10 years or so), you'd know that protection of assets and personnel is always on the unit commander's mind.

The government personnel who wear uniforms and/or badges are not the problem (at least not the overwhelming portion of the problem). The government personnel that wear suits, smile on TV while telling you about how they are going to rob you blind, and go around kissing babies are the ones that concern me the most.

I think lots of people "think out loud" about this because they really have no idea what they're actually contemplating doing or, quite possibly, because they're not firing on all cylinders.
Just pointing out that some people do have anti armor capabilities, and some people do have tanks with cannons that still work. And some people have anti air cannons and stuff like that.
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Old 03-31-2013, 03:23 AM   #87
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I can't tell if your a Vet or a guy who loves reading about hardware and capabilities?

I can tell that if you are a Vet... Counter Insurgency was not your specialty.

I've not encountered anyone here who's entertaining a fight with the US Military... but there are plenty who would not back down regardless of the Uniform they faced.

F22's again... Really?

Tack

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Originally Posted by kbd512 View Post
Nothing I pointed out is in any way unknown or mysterious to anyone in the military or law enforcement. One of the things you figure out pretty quick in the military is just how vulnerable you really are. Our military relies mostly on the notion that the people are on their side and no one would be stupid enough to attack a US military base. The thinking hasn't changed much since WWII and, unfortunately, has cost a lot of lives. Even the security after 9/11 was mostly more for show than to maintain capability.

I have emphatically attempted to dissuade people from carrying out such acts while pointing out that running around and shooting guys that rappel out of little black helicopters is not going to win a war against our government, which is exactly what's in store for us if thousands of gun owners decided to go march on DC while toting their rifles.

I tried to outline a few realistic and survivable tactics that a bunch of overweight and out of shape civilians with hunting rifles could possibly pull off in their wildest dreams while pointing out how low and unlikely any long term survivability actually is.

Until you have communications, air superiority, artillery and mortars, and perhaps a few combat vehicles you can expect to have your rear end handed to you in just about every engagement.

So, shooting at little black helicopters or little black clad men rappelling from little black helicopters is a really dumb idea. Putting holes through the engine intakes or exhausts while the little black helicopters are hovering or, preferably, on the ground is a much better idea.

The F-22 costs more than $250 million dollars, is incredibly fast, can evade the most modern sensor suites, and has considerable firepower- but one .50 caliber hole through either engine later and it's a paperweight. Every piece of military hardware, no matter how sophisticated or seemingly powerful, has its weak points and vulnerabilities.

Trust me, the government knows all of this already. If you ever bothered to pay attention to the force protection briefs while you were in (assuming you served in the military at some point in the past 10 years or so), you'd know that protection of assets and personnel is always on the unit commander's mind.

The government personnel who wear uniforms and/or badges are not the problem (at least not the overwhelming portion of the problem). The government personnel that wear suits, smile on TV while telling you about how they are going to rob you blind, and go around kissing babies are the ones that concern me the most.

I think lots of people "think out loud" about this because they really have no idea what they're actually contemplating doing or, quite possibly, because they're not firing on all cylinders.
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Old 03-31-2013, 03:25 AM   #88
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F-22 is basically a $250 million dollar flying computer

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Old 03-31-2013, 03:57 AM   #89
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F-22 is basically a $250 million dollar flying computer
Yeah... I know what it is... But it's irrelevant in the context of a potential revolution.

Should it happen, revolutionaries will not be flocking to the hills to be slaughtered by air power. They'll be sitting tight, not looking for trouble, but prepared to kill "anyone" coming through there front door.

Once that step has been taken, any shooter who survives is now wanted and therefore has no incentive to stop.

As Cops are kicking in doors, these first holdout begin targeting anyone carrying out these orders.

Before too long there is no one available too actually police the streets. Cops and Patriots are too focused on each other and criminal activity explodes in the ensuing vacuum.

At this point we see the predictable phase 2, martial law, to restore order. National Guard armor and Hummers on City streets leads unavoidable abuses by the Fed's drawing more Citizens into the conflict.

Every Major Citizen victory is met with the predictable Federal
Response of "escalation", and every "escalation" only serves to "create" more Patriots.

This is a predictable pattern because it's already happened 1000's of Times throughout human history... and the USA will be no different.

Would it happen over another AWB?
Would it wait for financial collapse?

At this point it's impossible to tell what will touch it off or when... The only certainty is that:

A. It will happen and...
B. When it does, the Government will fall.

Personally, I'm hoping the pendulum swings hard to the right in 2014 and buys us a few more decades.

Tack
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Old 03-31-2013, 05:07 AM   #90
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Yeah... I know what it is... But it's irrelevant in the context of a potential revolution.

Should it happen, revolutionaries will not be flocking to the hills to be slaughtered by air power. They'll be sitting tight, not looking for trouble, but prepared to kill "anyone" coming through there front door.

Once that step has been taken, any shooter who survives is now wanted and therefore has no incentive to stop.

As Cops are kicking in doors, these first holdout begin targeting anyone carrying out these orders.

Before too long there is no one available too actually police the streets. Cops and Patriots are too focused on each other and criminal activity explodes in the ensuing vacuum.

At this point we see the predictable phase 2, martial law, to restore order. National Guard armor and Hummers on City streets leads unavoidable abuses by the Fed's drawing more Citizens into the conflict.

Every Major Citizen victory is met with the predictable Federal
Response of "escalation", and every "escalation" only serves to "create" more Patriots.

This is a predictable pattern because it's already happened 1000's of Times throughout human history... and the USA will be no different.

Would it happen over another AWB?
Would it wait for financial collapse?

At this point it's impossible to tell what will touch it off or when... The only certainty is that:

A. It will happen and...
B. When it does, the Government will fall.

Personally, I'm hoping the pendulum swings hard to the right in 2014 and buys us a few more decades.

Tack
I hope so too anything to bide more time to try and stop it is good time spent indeed.
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