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Are we losing the gun debate?


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Old 03-25-2013, 01:52 AM   #11
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NO WE ARE NOT LOOSING ALTHOUGH THEY WOULD LOVE TO MAKE YOU THINK WE ARE!
We are winning and if they think we are going to comply they can KOA!
Come Get Em! I am too old to let someone violate our Constitutional Rights! Enough said!

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Old 03-25-2013, 02:16 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by opaww View Post
We are not losing the pro-gun debate, the lamestreem media is losing and grasping at straws
^^THIS^^

The louder they squeal... The closer they are to defeat.

Petulant school children who did not get there way. Oh yes, there will be much rending of hair and knashing of teeth...

The melt downs wil be EPIC!

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Old 03-25-2013, 03:07 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by molonlabexx View Post

According to DHS, they are gearing up for a revolution. When my site comes back online, I will be sure to point you to some articles for better information.
"according to DHS"? DHS themselves have admitted that the ammo and gun purchases are for putting down a revolution?
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Old 03-25-2013, 02:54 PM   #14
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You can tell the debate has shifted because the media and pundits are getting much more specific.

Now they mention universal background checks and tougher laws for straw purchasers. There is the occasional op-ed about magazine capacity, but you can tell they see that one is losing steam.

When this started there was sweeping statements and talks of widespread bans. They weren't specific then because they were looking to hit everything they could. There were even comments about banning handguns in the early days of the debate, granted it was from deep blue territory.

The fight is far from over, but we are winning. Don't mistake exhaustion for for retreat. Don't allow the enemy to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

They are running out of ground to fight. No compromise! They want some kind of victory but there really is not support they way they say there is. Anything they get is a foothold. It will take years to undo the damage in NY, Colorado, and other places that have enacted tougher laws. No reason to GIVE them more than they have TAKEN.
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Old 03-29-2013, 04:11 PM   #15
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We are in effect losing the 2nd amendment.
POINT-Gun Banners,"Background checks just keep guns out of the hands of those who should not have them." ) But who decides what in one's background makes him/her ineligible? Anyone THEY deem safe can purchase a firearm. Will the personal stuff between you and your doctor be checked? How about school records? Grades? I.Q.? Taken to the extreme.....they could find a reason to deny everyone their 2nd Amendment rights!!!

POINT-Also, It is very important that everyone understands "Nudging" as coined by Cass Sunstein, Obama's regulation czar. I couldn't dislike this man more but the genius of his "nudging" must be appreciated. Sunstein says, "It isn't necessary to ban firearms. Just make them more difficult to afford or own or get ammo, etc. by regulations and rules that sound reasonable, but nudge people away from the ownership and/or purchase."

POINT- Progressives are patient and persistent. Imagine your grandson saying, [My dad and grandpa loved guns and owned several but I just can't afford such an expensive pursuit.]
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Old 03-29-2013, 05:20 PM   #16
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Ours is a tradition of the common man. If prices keep going the way they are, our tradition will be too expensive for most to afford (I certainly won't pay $60 for a box of 9mm target ammo.). Moreover, hunting land is priced at a premium whether you lease or buy.

Finally, the folks with the most voting power live in large cities (most of whom are anti-gun and never experienced a "healthy" exposure to firearms). Just look at the electoral college results from our last presidential election - liberal states have an excess of power with their votes.

I'd love to hear some productive ways of stopping this trend but I haven't seen many.
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Old 03-29-2013, 05:34 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by EDsaid42 View Post
We are in effect losing the 2nd amendment.
POINT-Gun Banners,"Background checks just keep guns out of the hands of those who should not have them." ) But who decides what in one's background makes him/her ineligible? Anyone THEY deem safe can purchase a firearm. Will the personal stuff between you and your doctor be checked? How about school records? Grades? I.Q.? Taken to the extreme.....they could find a reason to deny everyone their 2nd Amendment rights!!!

POINT-Also, It is very important that everyone understands "Nudging" as coined by Cass Sunstein, Obama's regulation czar. I couldn't dislike this man more but the genius of his "nudging" must be appreciated. Sunstein says, "It isn't necessary to ban firearms. Just make them more difficult to afford or own or get ammo, etc. by regulations and rules that sound reasonable, but nudge people away from the ownership and/or purchase."

POINT- Progressives are patient and persistent. Imagine your grandson saying, [My dad and grandpa loved guns and owned several but I just can't afford such an expensive pursuit.]
I'm afraid I have to agree and it doesn't apply to only the 2nd Admendment. Look at health care. Look at public education. Look at Social Security. All of these things have gotten more and more restrictive over the years; stripping away more and more choice and freedom until finally all there is is the government option (whatever that may be). Those in power who seek the enslavement of the American people have been slowly chipping away at our freedoms for more than half a century under the guise of "sounding reasonable", "being fair", "being diverse or equal", "protecting the children", etc. They are masters of "slowly boiling the frog to death" and I don't see enough people in this country waking up to that fact to stop it.
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Old 03-29-2013, 06:44 PM   #18
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Just my two cents...
I have the feeling that all the gun debate is ultimately based on attempting to ratify the UN arms treaty. They were poised & ready to pounce on the issue instantly, once they had the opportunity. They unleashed hundreds of anti-gun bills in one legislative session, that's a little too many to be "on the fly"..
The senate just had a late night vote not to ratify if it infringes on the 2nd amendment http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/senate/290001-senate-votes-to-stop-us-from-joining-un-arms-treaty You can see who voted for & against here: http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=113&session=1&vote =00091 ...but ultimately that was just political grandstanding, because exactly who's interpretation of the 2nd amendment are we going by? The president? The Democrat Senate?? If so, goodbye 2nd amendment, goodbye constitution & bill of rights, goodbye United States sovereignty, hello UN arms treaty. There is a big picture here that seems so incredible to have to fight but if we keep informed & inform others & actually take action with our state reps & senators we can have many victories. This is a fight that will go on for a very long time but we can't let the leftists take anymore victories from us.
i call them "leftists" because they are not liberals because that word would imply liberty, they are statist, leftists. They are "the left" & they are going down.
We can win this battle for hearts & minds, stay vigilant!
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Last edited by jw2atech; 03-29-2013 at 07:02 PM.
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Old 03-30-2013, 07:17 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by jp_over View Post
Ours is a tradition of the common man. If prices keep going the way they are, our tradition will be too expensive for most to afford (I certainly won't pay $60 for a box of 9mm target ammo.). Moreover, hunting land is priced at a premium whether you lease or buy.

Finally, the folks with the most voting power live in large cities (most of whom are anti-gun and never experienced a "healthy" exposure to firearms). Just look at the electoral college results from our last presidential election - liberal states have an excess of power with their votes.

I'd love to hear some productive ways of stopping this trend but I haven't seen many.
You mention the kind of prices that result from the destruction of the dollar, and while the inflation this causes is a painful (but little understood) way that the government shrinks it's debt in real terms, it is not related to the gun banners' skullduggery. The administrative branch of the government is sufficiently powerful to either encourage with subsidies or discourage with licensing and regulation just about anything they want to screw with.

As long as we have the electoral college system, the voting power of folks in flyover country will continue to be significant. The big advantage in the densely populated areas in my view is the efficiency the leftists enjoy in mass communication on a street level. Imagine how effective stumping on the corner of HWY XX and HWY ZZ in the middle of Montana.

But the leftists want popular vote only and if they succeed in scrapping the electoral college system your assessment of who will choose our president will have been become spot on. Without the electoral college system and it's function of spreading out the power of the vote, our national office holders will be filled by the big urban densely populated areas.

The leftists (progressives is the stealth term currently) already scrapped the Constitutionally proscribed way we elected our U.S. Senators with the 17th Amendment early in the 20th century. Before the 17th Amendment U.S. Senators were elected by each state's respective legislature. It was the perfect way to spread the choice for U.S. Senator over every area of a state.

Due to the crime of the 17th Amendment, in my state of Michigan our U.S. Senators are chosen by the Detroit area voters exclusively. The only thing that keeps a bit of balance in the U.S. Senate is that all states have two Senators and the states without a huge urban area outnumber the ones that do.
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Old 03-30-2013, 07:55 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by jw2atech View Post
Just my two cents...
I have the feeling that all the gun debate is ultimately based on attempting to ratify the UN arms treaty. They were poised & ready to pounce on the issue instantly, once they had the opportunity. They unleashed hundreds of anti-gun bills in one legislative session, that's a little too many to be "on the fly"..
The senate just had a late night vote not to ratify if it infringes on the 2nd amendment http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/senate/290001-senate-votes-to-stop-us-from-joining-un-arms-treaty You can see who voted for & against here: http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=113&session=1&vote =00091 ...but ultimately that was just political grandstanding, because exactly who's interpretation of the 2nd amendment are we going by? The president? The Democrat Senate?? If so, goodbye 2nd amendment, goodbye constitution & bill of rights, goodbye United States sovereignty, hello UN arms treaty. There is a big picture here that seems so incredible to have to fight but if we keep informed & inform others & actually take action with our state reps & senators we can have many victories. This is a fight that will go on for a very long time but we can't let the leftists take anymore victories from us.
i call them "leftists" because they are not liberals because that word would imply liberty, they are statist, leftists. They are "the left" & they are going down.
We can win this battle for hearts & minds, stay vigilant!
Well said. The term vigilant reminded me of another tool that we must watch out for and be aware of how they use it. It is related to the leftists' patience. It is called the "OVERTON WINDOW". How it works is an interesting study in human nature.

Within, for instance, the gun control Overton Window are the current laws, rules, regulations, morality, attitudes, etc. ...comprising the norms we accept grudgingly or otherwise. A new rule, regulation, etc. is usually a softened version of what the leftists true goal but at the same time it is the absolute maximum that the people are ready to accept. The people may say they held the line on something but close examination reveals something new that would never have been accepted in the past or the last time the window had been moved.

An example is the gun control act of 1968, the tenents of which we quite readily accept now. Several assassinations had occurred in prior years and the gun banners used this to get people to support the act. So the Overton Window got pushed just a bit in the direction the gun banners wanted to go.

There may be better smaller examples but banning private ownership of full auto weapons was one of the first gun ban moves that leftists succeeded in. I have read that this ban was accepted by the people due to the news reports of Tommy Gun use by organized crime at the time. And of course the Overton Window was pushed a little in the gun banners' preferred direction.

The leftists know that they can never succeed in the change to communism while the people have the Right To keep And Bear Arms. The are organized, persistent, and patient as Job. Piss off a few friends and relatives if you must but keep placing all this in front of them.
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