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Old 05-29-2011, 03:55 PM   #11
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Bighead, I'm not disputing what you're saying at all and I'd be grateful if you can point me to some links that show what you describe is what happened. Because if there were cop cars with flashing lights and sirens and if they did knock, identify themselves and wore clothing with markings that clearly identified them as cops, then that's a whole different issue.

My primary objection is LEOs wearing masks and all-black tactical gear and doing no-knock entries.

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Old 05-29-2011, 04:20 PM   #12
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Had this home owner been a convict or some other type of miscreant, no tough questions would be asked of the Sheriff's department, however, if you kill a former Marine, or any Veteran, you'd better be correct in your facts and be prepared to justify your actions IMMEDIATELY following the event.

This is particularly true now given the nations feeling that currently our #1 Hero's are not cops, there returning Veterans.

I'm not going to dissect the tactical aspects of this situation, there are simply not enough facts. However, the existence of this thread is a clear indications that Pima County could/should have been better prepared to handle the after action review.

I would hope all of us can hold our judgement until the full facts are know.

I would respectfully remind all of the LEO's here of 1 simple truth. Your safety and your ability to do your job lies neither in your numbers or your mandate. It rests completely in the TRUST of the American's citizenry. Never sacrifice that trust lest you learn the hard way that the punks and criminals your trained to deal with are mere children compared to the overwhelming threat you would face should the millions of honest, hardworking Veterans of this land begin to view you as storm troopers rather than peace officers.

TACK

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Old 05-29-2011, 04:23 PM   #13
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Here are a few things I have found out from reports.

1. The home invasions in this area had been done by people in similar looking gear to LEO.

2. He was just home from a night shift. I would think they would have known this through investigation, but I am not LEO so this is pure assumption. Why couldn't he have been apprehended as he was coming home without the need for a raid?

Just because he was a marine has no bearing if he was involved in the criminal activities that would justify this kind of raid. I still don't understand the SWAT member leaning in and blindly firing into the home.

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Old 05-29-2011, 04:33 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkt View Post
Bighead, I'm not disputing what you're saying at all and I'd be grateful if you can point me to some links that show what you describe is what happened. Because if there were cop cars with flashing lights and sirens and if they did knock, identify themselves and wore clothing with markings that clearly identified them as cops, then that's a whole different issue.

My primary objection is LEOs wearing masks and all-black tactical gear and doing no-knock entries.
And I would tend to agree with you. It is unfortunate that they could not simply detain Guerena at his work, and then enter the house for the search. Most likely the investigation had developed probable cause for the search warrant, with hopes that evidence in the homes would give them sufficient information to seek an arrest warrant. I would like to see search warrants that could authorize the detention of the person who controls the location to be searched, even if the detention takes place at a separate location before the search warrant is served.

And even if Jose Guerena is a murdering home invader, I think in ideal terms this raid could have been handled better. But, what I've learned is the world doesn't work in the ideal, and all in all it seems like the police raid team was trying to do what they had been trained to do. With difficult circumstances it is often easy to look back and see where mistakes where made, and what might have been done better, but the police and Jose Guerena were in the moment, without the benefit of hindsight.

Here are a few of the links with the most information:

Statement of SWAT team supervisor Bob Krygier

Arizona Daily Star: Complex Drug Probe Triggered SWAT raid

KGUN News: Video of the initial SWAT roll up at Guereno residence

Arizona Daily Star: All Four Homes in Raid Tied to Guerena Family
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Old 05-29-2011, 05:52 PM   #15
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Default the great debate

This story is a great example of how we express our political views in America now.

1. The other side is ALWAYS wrong.

2. None of the pertinent facts can change rule 1

This applies to everything now.

Healthcare, budget, iraq, 2a, debt.

This conversation reminds me of another on this board where LE was in pursuit and entered someones home without a warrant. My point here is that when the cops kick your door in your 2A rights are gone and if you touch your weapon they will kill you. Right house, wrong house, you grab your weapon and you get shot. The cops will spin it up for the press and you wont be suing anyone.

How often does anyone survive beeing shot by LE? They always seem to die on the scene...

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Old 05-29-2011, 06:52 PM   #16
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Gotta lover AZ. There news station is called "KGUN9". We're not even that overt down here in the "Gunshine State" of Floida!

Is the "9" for 9mm?

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Old 05-29-2011, 07:15 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tackleberry1 View Post
I would hope all of us can hold our judgement until the full facts are know.

I would respectfully remind all of the LEO's here of 1 simple truth. Your safety and your ability to do your job lies neither in your numbers or your mandate. It rests completely in the TRUST of the American's citizenry. Never sacrifice that trust lest you learn the hard way that the punks and criminals your trained to deal with are mere children compared to the overwhelming threat you would face should the millions of honest, hardworking Veterans of this land begin to view you as storm troopers rather than peace officers. TACK
With all due respect...."QFTMFT!"
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Old 05-29-2011, 07:17 PM   #18
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I'd be interested to see how different the responses would be if the stories were titled "Police shoot armed drug dealer". Also how different they would be if he had not been a former Marine.

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Old 05-29-2011, 07:37 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tackleberry1 View Post
Had this home owner been a convict or some other type of miscreant, no tough questions would be asked of the Sheriff's department, however, if you kill a former Marine, or any Veteran, you'd better be correct in your facts and be prepared to justify your actions IMMEDIATELY following the event.

This is particularly true now given the nations feeling that currently our #1 Hero's are not cops, there returning Veterans.

I'm not going to dissect the tactical aspects of this situation, there are simply not enough facts. However, the existence of this thread is a clear indications that Pima County could/should have been better prepared to handle the after action review.

I would hope all of us can hold our judgement until the full facts are know.

I would respectfully remind all of the LEO's here of 1 simple truth. Your safety and your ability to do your job lies neither in your numbers or your mandate. It rests completely in the TRUST of the American's citizenry. Never sacrifice that trust lest you learn the hard way that the punks and criminals your trained to deal with are mere children compared to the overwhelming threat you would face should the millions of honest, hardworking Veterans of this land begin to view you as storm troopers rather than peace officers.

TACK
Amen man, Amen.
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Old 05-29-2011, 09:03 PM   #20
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In my original post I didn't intend to cast dispersions on the LEO's of Arizona.
No one can know exactly what the first guy in the door saw except himself.
What I do know is that in the last couple of years there seems to be a more"shoot first and more" attitude. I honestly support our men and women in blue but (and this is a big but) I have seen more gestopo attitude in my local area than should be allowed in this country. Im sure we all know some great men and women that wear the badge and do what is right. I will also bet you've met some a**hole that gets out of his cruiser , hitches up the belt and struts up to your car like he's John Wayne. These are the guys that scare the crap out of me. And don't forget that in some states, there is what is called a "no knock warrant".
Anyone remember a fellow named Mike Ballew? ( I think thats spelled right)

Im done for now.

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