SWAT team shootin in AZ.
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Old 05-28-2011, 05:43 PM   #1
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Default SWAT team shootin in AZ.

I just saw this on tv this morning about a SWAT team shooting an ex Marine in his home in Arizona. 71 shots fired by the swat boys. apparently 21 hits.
I don't know what the deal was but the news media said he was being investigated for being part of a home invasion burglary ring.
His wife said she saw men with guns outside and that her husband grabbed a rifle to confront the intruders. Also it was said his rifle was still on safety when he was shot. No drugs or stolen items found.
This is just another example of some of the trigger happy Rambos that have infiltrated our law enforcement agencies. (remember when they were called "peace officers"?)
In the last few months in my neck of the woods there have been several officer involved shootings. IMHO some were very questionable.

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Old 05-29-2011, 03:28 AM   #2
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I am waiting to hear more as this unfolds and don't want to rush to judgement. That said they have released the helmet cam video of one of their team that was in their vehicle. I was surprised to see one of the SWAT team members lean in and blindly fire into the house. I would be interested to get the take of our LEO members. I do not pretend to know what it is like to be in those shoes and would appreciate some insight.

Here is the link to the video. No blood and gore but you get the idea of what happened. Vmix : Video: Tucson SWAT shooting of former Marine

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Old 05-29-2011, 07:28 AM   #3
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Im not going to condemm in this instance yet either. It sounds like someone somewhere FUBARed smething, but I cant blame the first guy thru the door if someone has a rifle in hand.

I did think of this site when I saw the story, ie just how many custom AR-15s did he get shot by anyway?

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Old 05-29-2011, 12:56 PM   #4
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Here is my take on this and keep in mind that I'm biased. I'm an LEO.

I hear a siren. I see an entry team whose officers are clearly marked. They announce "Police Search Warrant, Open The Door". They make entry and theres a pause then the shooting starts. We can't see what the entry team can see!

What we don't have is the information from the investigation. There was obviously enough P/C for a judge to sign a search warrant. Just because they didn't locate any stolen property in his house doesn't mean he didn't commit any home invasions or burglaries. If he was part of a "Ring" I would bet his house was not the only one hit.

From what I see in the video, any reasonable person would know that it was the police at the door! If he knew, and I would suspect he did, then why would he grab his gun.

His rifle being on safe has absolutely no bearing on wether or not this was a good shoot.

Why did they fire so many rounds in the manner that they did? I don't know. I can't see what they observed inside the house.

Good people can do bad things! There is nothing in this video and story that shows the police did anything wrong. Just because he was an ex-marine doesn't make them wrong. And his weapon being on safe doesn't make them wrong.

My response is based soley on the information provided in this thread!

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Old 05-29-2011, 01:46 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldshooter View Post
I just saw this on tv this morning about a SWAT team shooting an ex Marine in his home in Arizona. 71 shots fired by the swat boys. apparently 21 hits.
I don't know what the deal was but the news media said he was being investigated for being part of a home invasion burglary ring.
His wife said she saw men with guns outside and that her husband grabbed a rifle to confront the intruders. Also it was said his rifle was still on safety when he was shot. No drugs or stolen items found.
This is just another example of some of the trigger happy Rambos that have infiltrated our law enforcement agencies. (remember when they were called "peace officers"?)
In the last few months in my neck of the woods there have been several officer involved shootings. IMHO some were very questionable.
"What surprises me is how many people whose ignorance of shooting is obvious do not let their ignorance stand in the way of reaching sweeping conclusions about situations that they have never faced."

-Dr. Thomas Sowell

Link: Force Science: Shots Fired: An Examination of Police Shootings and Citizen Behaviors
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Old 05-29-2011, 01:55 PM   #6
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Some bits of information we have heard already (I won't call them facts, because we don't know what's true and what isn't):

  • Vanessa Guerena woke her husband, Jose, at 9:30AM just after he had gone to sleep after working a night shift saying she heard noises outside and a man was at her window wearing a mask who pointed a weapon at her.
  • Vanessa did NOT identify the people she saw outside as law-enforcement.
  • Vanessa lost two relatives in March, 2010 (Manuel and Cynthia Orozco) to home invaders who also shot their 3-year-old daughter.
  • Initial reports by police said Jose fired the first shot and that is why they emptied three full mags in his direction. Later, we found out that was untrue - Jose had not fired and his safety was on.
  • This raid was part of a multi-home raid on marijuana trafficking, but nothing was found in the Guerena's home and very little was found in the other homes that were raided. Had this been a successful take-down of a trafficking group, I guarantee you we would have seen the evidence on the evening news to mitigate the screw-up at killing Guerena.
  • The cops would not let the EMTs treat Jose until an hour after Vanessa had called 911. He had already died, of course.
  • Warrants and other evidence was sealed four days after this became national news.
  • Cops scolded the media for questioning the legality of the raid, the department's account of what happened, and the department's ability to fairly investigate its own officers.
  • We know the investigation that led to the warrants being issued was not thorough - cops did NOT know there were kids in the Guerena's home, for example.
  • Cops had mistakenly raided a home near Guerena the same morning and have since replaced the front door they smashed.

A side commentary: Sheriff Dupnik was the guy in charge of this raid. He is also the guy who criticized the Tea Party movement back in 2010 claiming it was full of racists and bigots. Dupnik is very pro-illegal alien and has come out against all anti-illegal alien bills.
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Old 05-29-2011, 02:01 PM   #7
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Is it SOP for the entry team to approach the door with their weapons slung across their back???

That didn't look like a group of trigger-happy Rambos to me. I would have expected them to be more aggressive.

But I'm just Joe Public. What do I know.

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Old 05-29-2011, 02:14 PM   #8
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Default excessive force?

Great stuff! Where were the predator drones or the blackhawks? Aren't there rules on the use of force anymore or is it just that you go in with all the force you can muster? Twentyone hits!

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Old 05-29-2011, 02:42 PM   #9
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"Marijuana trafficking". Serioulsly?!?

Police State muzzle control... Don't know what's at the end of your barrel? 3 others shooting in a general direction? Don't worry, jump into the fray and unload your mag.

Pro-police, anti-"police state"!

Being less knee-jerk about this... I have to consider that if they had the right house, I'm not sure that I would have a problem with their actions (after the 1st shot was fired).

What I do have a problem with is the premise that this type of response is warranted in this case, even if they had the right guy.

There needs to be some set of standards for this type of response (they can't be your defacto response or viewed as a method of keeping the edge of the weapon sharp, or in self-justifying their existence or expense):

  • You have the right house!
  • There are no kids in the house!
  • The charges are in line with an armed response! (i.e., Someone in immediate danger.)
  • The person in the house represents a real threat!
  • There is no other way to apprehend the person other than an armed home raid!
  • Oh, and You have the right house!
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Old 05-29-2011, 03:47 PM   #10
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Quote:
Some bits of information we have heard already (I won't call them facts, because we don't know what's true and what isn't):
[*]Vanessa Guerena woke her husband, Jose, at 9:30AM just after he had gone to sleep after working a night shift saying she heard noises outside and a man was at her window wearing a mask who pointed a weapon at her.[*]Vanessa did NOT identify the people she saw outside as law-enforcement.
The noises she must have heard were the siren on the fully marked police vehicle in front of her house, which was quieted only so that the raid team could announce their presence several times before breaching the front door. And I'm not sure what the police are supposed to do to identify themselves when they already arrive wearing full tactical uniforms with police identification markings across the helmet, chest, back, and on both shoulders.

Quote:
[*]Vanessa lost two relatives in March, 2010 (Manuel and Cynthia Orozco) to home invaders who also shot their 3-year-old daughter.
A tragedy that might have clouded her judgment, but doesn't speak to the police conduct.

Quote:
[*]Initial reports by police said Jose fired the first shot and that is why they emptied three full mags in his direction. Later, we found out that was untrue - Jose had not fired and his safety was on.
Officers arrive, siren blaring for about 8 seconds, knock and announce for about 20 seconds, then breach the front door. They are confronted with Guerena standing down the hallway with an AR-15. A member of the entry team has a negligent discharge, sparking this powder keg of a situation as other members of the team believe they are under fire, and return fire on Guerena. The entire exchanged lasted about 10 seconds.

Quote:
[*]This raid was part of a multi-home raid on marijuana trafficking, but nothing was found in the Guerena's home and very little was found in the other homes that were raided. Had this been a successful take-down of a trafficking group, I guarantee you we would have seen the evidence on the evening news to mitigate the screw-up at killing Guerena.
My understanding was the raids were coordinated against suspects involved in home invasion robberies (robbing drug dealers). What does "very little was found" mean? I have read information that "The raid netted drugs, large amounts of cash, bulletproof vests, about 30 cellphones and a stolen vehicle, records show, but no arrests have been made." Another report indicated "about $100,000 in cash, marijuana and firearms were seized that morning from the four homes that were searched." Another report indicates that it was $94,000 in a shoe box was found in the raid on Guerena's brother's house.

Quote:
[*]The cops would not let the EMTs treat Jose until an hour after Vanessa had called 911. He had already died, of course.
Emergency medical crews will generally not enter an unsafe scene. Guerena reportedly fell out of the hallway, and out of view. Police indicate that they could not guarantee that he was not still a threat, or that other threats didn't exist in the house. I would bet they waited on a bomb disposal robot to enter the house with a video feed before declaring the scene safe.

Quote:
[*]Warrants and other evidence was sealed four days after this became national news.
I think the initial warrants should have been released right up front, and any information that might pose a risk to undercovers or informants should be redacted. Real information is how you combat wild conjecture.

Quote:
[*]Cops scolded the media for questioning the legality of the raid, the department's account of what happened, and the department's ability to fairly investigate its own officers.
An overzealous media parades the "grieving widow" and pictures of "the victim" in his dress blues. Negative reporting doesn't always illicit the best response from the target of the negativity. But the Sheriff's Office should be smart enough to know that it can't win with some reporters, and simply present the facts as the investigation unfolds.

***

I've heard repeatedly about how Guerena had just come home from a 12-hour shift, but I've had to dig to find out that evidence supporting the warrants had been seized or that "during a briefing before the warrants were served, records show, detectives told SWAT team members the two Guerena brothers and Celaya were associated with a double homicide related to a home invasion."

The news had decided what it wants to report. Many of the stories are loaded with inaccuracies, others assume facts that are not known, and still others allege police misconduct and coverup, despite clear evidence to the contrary.

Some might do better if they read more than just Radley Balko at the Huffington Post.
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