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Old 03-13-2013, 10:23 AM   #1
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Default Straw Purchases, and the Grey Area

Slightly confused here......this thread is in response to the thread about Mark whats-his-name buying the AR, and giving it to the cops. Everyone agrees that Straw Purchases are not legal. It asks on the form when you buy a gun if it's for you. Also, the general consensus seems to be that technically, you can do a private sale, with no paperwork. Do these 2 situations seem to be in conflict to you guys? Is the way out answering "NO" on the form to the "is it for you?" question? Has anyone done this? What happens if you do answer no, is that bad, or just assumed you're giving or gifting it?

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Old 03-13-2013, 10:34 AM   #2
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The way it was explained to me by a gun shop owner is that if you buy the firearm with the intent of gifting it, the gun is actually for your use. The logic is that the use you have for the gun is as a gift to fulfill some sort of obligation. Case in point. A few years back I wanted a Springfield XD .40 for Christmas. With full disclosure to the FFL retailer the person giving me this gift was deemed to be the person that needed to fill out the paperwork since the firearm would be delivered to them before it was gifted to me.

Was the FFL retailer correct? Heck if I know, but it seemed logical. What's more, it seemed within the law. In this case, Mark whats-his-name is buying a future charitable contribution to a municipal agency. It looks bad, but I think it would be considered a legal purchase for a legitimate purpose. He may even be able to deduct it from his income tax.

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Old 03-13-2013, 11:02 AM   #3
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Your hitting the nail on the head! These rules and laws are worthless and stupid. First off, Law Enforcement does not prosecute equal crimes equally according to who the offender is. If your an Astronaut or News Anchor, you can break the law and your a Hero; if your a Veteran or a Farmer and do the same thing- your a criminal, lunatic and Felon!

My Drill Sergent used to say, "Dont anticipate the Command", that was good advice cause you never really knew what he was thinking until he said it. The same goes with law and scrutiny; anticipating Criminal laws will be broken by law abiding citizens before they have been is jumping the gun without due cause. Straw Purchases where the purchaser understands the recipient of the legal weapon is going to break the law with it are as rare as Frog fur; gifts and trades are not rare yet both will be viewed with the same eye!

They say one thing then do something else completely. F&F is a perfect example of "do as I say, not as I do", "Its alright for me but not for you". We have a Government full of Hypocritical Sociopaths that think laws are for everyone but them! When one of their own gets caught with their hands in our cookie jars, the rally around them like an immune response to a pathogen! Did anyone go to prison for F&F? There should have been a busload or more prosecuted, imprisoned and fired! For gods sakes, innocent people were murdered with the weapons they sold directly to Druglord Arms buyers. WTF makes BHO or Holder any Different than Black Market Traffickers of Arms that we regularly target and prosecute?

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Old 03-13-2013, 12:32 PM   #4
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The question on the 4473 is NOT "Are you the actual user?". It is "Are you the actual BUYER?"

Translation- as best as I understand it.

I provide the money and buy a gun. I give that gun to my neighbor in appreciation for his rescuing my kids from a feral dog. NOT A STRAWMAN.

I am going to a gun show. Neighbor asks me to keep an eye out for a Phased Plasma Rifle in the 40 watt range. He gives me $200 towards the rifle. At the show, I find one for $200. I buy it, take it home, give to my neighbor, and I just made a Strawman purchase.



I buy a rifle with my money. I turn around and sell that rifle as a FTF sale. NOT A STRAWMAN purchase. I WAS the actual buyer. However, if I do that enough, I am now "engaging in the business" of buying and selling guns to make a livelihood- and I better have a license as a dealer. Different legal issue than Strawman.

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Old 03-13-2013, 12:43 PM   #5
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I see it as c3shooter explained. My money=my purchase. Someonelse's money=not my purchase.

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Old 03-13-2013, 09:36 PM   #6
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Quote:
The question on the 4473 is NOT "Are you the actual user?". It is "Are you the actual BUYER?"

Translation- as best as I understand it.

I provide the money and buy a gun. I give that gun to my neighbor in appreciation for his rescuing my kids from a feral dog. NOT A STRAWMAN.

I am going to a gun show. Neighbor asks me to keep an eye out for a Phased Plasma Rifle in the 40 watt range. He gives me $200 towards the rifle. At the show, I find one for $200. I buy it, take it home, give to my neighbor, and I just made a Strawman purchase.



I buy a rifle with my money. I turn around and sell that rifle as a FTF sale. NOT A STRAWMAN purchase. I WAS the actual buyer. However, if I do that enough, I am now "engaging in the business" of buying and selling guns to make a livelihood- and I better have a license as a dealer. Different legal issue than Strawman.
Yeah, that sounds right, ummm, sort of. I get it, but it makes no sense, like a lot of other gun laws. Maybe we are not supposed to understand. Anyone care to chime in as to what happens if you say you're NOT the actual purchaser?

How about this: technically, C3, you're correct, ethically, WebleyFosbery, you're right. IMHO, of course.
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Old 03-13-2013, 09:54 PM   #7
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I totally understand the the legal definition, its the reality of the thing that bothers me. First of all, nobody should need to talk to a lawyer before they use their god given rights. The 2a is simple for a reason, not to confuse, just to illuminate clear intent. Secondly, If its a crime, everyone should pay the same prices for committing the same crime, its disingenuous to give the person with prestige or money a break and throw away the key for the poor slob that missed the nuances of the sub laws! Third, if you dont abuse others rights, you probably didnt break any useful laws!

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Old 03-13-2013, 10:12 PM   #8
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What happens if you answer ANY question on the 4473 in a disqualifying manner? Your business with the gun dealer is now concluded. They may not transfer a firearm to you. Period.

This is the form 4473 you complete when buying a gun through a dealer.

http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf

Please go to the top of page 2- the section right above when you signed- CERTIFYING that stuff in the bold print right above your name. Now read that part. Especially the part about being a felony.

Now, PLEASE do not ask me WHY something is a law. It is a law because enough politicians thought it should be a law. Myself, I write that off to brain damage from drinking the water in DC.

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Old 03-13-2013, 10:25 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c3shooter View Post
What happens if you answer ANY question on the 4473 in a disqualifying manner? Your business with the gun dealer is now concluded. They may not transfer a firearm to you. Period.

This is the form 4473 you complete when buying a gun through a dealer.

http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf

Please go to the top of page 2- the section right above when you signed- CERTIFYING that stuff in the bold print right above your name. Now read that part. Especially the part about being a felony.

Now, PLEASE do not ask me WHY something is a law. It is a law because enough politicians thought it should be a law. Myself, I write that off to brain damage from drinking the water in DC.

Not the water, its the koolaid...
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Old 03-14-2013, 10:02 AM   #10
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Yeah, sorry. I shoulda read that. However, I am in no way disqualified from buying a gun, and all the times I have done it, it's been for me. It's just a matter of checking the same boxes every time. So, as a result, I have not memorized the GD form top to bottom!

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