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Old 08-21-2012, 03:09 PM   #21
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Speaking from the UK, I am aware of the Ruby Ridge incident more than most, if not nearly all, of my countrymen. We have had many police shootings here of very questionable judgement, but none, to my knowledge, have ever been the subject of a successful prosecution. Most of the reason is the 'expert' opinion required to show that the shooting was out of order. But who gives that opinion? Answer? The only people who have the expertise in shooting people in civilian situations, the police. And somehow they always seem to come up with the conclusion that the officer was right.

The problem as I see it for ruby ridge was not that anyone was shot by the law enforcement agencies there (I agree, obviously, that it was a hell of a problem for the Weaver family), but the cover up that followed, where the authorities tried everything to disguise the truth of what took place. It is an inescapable fact that in a shooting situation, human beings are likely to make mistakes, however highly trained. It's more important in my mind that the truth must come out afterwards.

Take the Charles DeMenezes shooting on the tube (underground, subway?) shortly after the suicide bombings in London. The shooters did exactly what they needed to do, based upon the information they were given. But that information was wrong, and it was wrong because of police and intelligence services negligence. The dealing with that negligence has been disgraceful. The Officer in charge of the operation, and therefore responsible for a totally unnecessary killing of a completely innocent man , was promoted shortly afterwards to a very senior position in the Metropolitan Police.

It's the cover ups of an anonymous Big Brother government that is the issue, and not the all too human errors made by fallible men who most likely believe in what they are doing but are obliged to run for cover when the enquiry starts as the government puts them forward as the sole reason for error, leaving the management failures to fail another day.

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Old 08-21-2012, 04:04 PM   #22
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The economist Milton Friedman observed there are four ways to spend money.

1. You spend your own money on yourself. You buy the best quality you can with as little money as possible.

2. You spend your own money on someone else. You buy reasonable quality but your real focus is on saving money.

3. You spend someone else's money on yourself. You go all-out and buy the best quality without worrying about cost.

4. You spend someone else's money on someone else. You don't care at all about quality or cost.

The government always spends the fourth way.

When dealing with life and death situations, the meme stays true. Higher-ups order a kill, but they are neither the ones doing the killing nor being put in harm's way. They don't care about either killing an innocent or ending the lives of those who work for them because they don't have to care.

It is past time we put a stop to both activities - spending irresponsibly and killing irresponsibly.

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Old 08-21-2012, 05:50 PM   #23
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When dealing with life and death situations, the meme stays true. Higher-ups order a kill, but they are neither the ones doing the killing nor being put in harm's way. They don't care about either killing an innocent or ending the lives of those who work for them because they don't have to care.

It is past time we put a stop to both activities - spending irresponsibly and killing irresponsibly.
Anyone who disagrees with that belongs in a lunbatic asylum!
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Old 08-22-2012, 01:51 AM   #24
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It was the Klinton Oligarchy and incidents like this that made a young KJ into the "right wing constitution loving homegrown zealot" he is today...........

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Old 08-22-2012, 02:27 AM   #25
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i by NO MEANS condone what happened @ Ruby Ridge, but you cannot convict a person for following orders from a higher up that KNOWINGLY GIVES (GAVE) FALSE INFORMATION ABOUT THE SUBJECT(S) TO THE TACTICAL TEAM(S).
You are not required to follow illegal orders. That BS didn't wash for nazi war criminals and it shouldn't wash here either.
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Old 08-22-2012, 02:55 AM   #26
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And to further that statement of fact, Nazi officials were convicted of war crimes and crimes against humanity despite their actual defense being "I was just following orders".

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Old 08-22-2012, 04:27 AM   #27
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let me clarify. following orders and choosing to disobey orders because it is wrong is one thing, but killing because you were told, by "intelligence (higher ups)" that all are well armed and dangerous and will kill you in a heartbeat, is another.

again, i do not condone this horrific incident. hell, i got pi$$ed when i read that the start of the shootin was because the agents killed the family dog. and i totally agree with all of you, the boy and the mother should've NEVER been killed, or even shot at for that matter. BUT, bad intel kills good people.

just following orders for the nazi's was the hateful killing of unarmed men, women, and children to acheive an NWO........brought about by the reckless hatred of a little man.

i wasn't there, so i don't know what went on. but, like holder and Fast and Furious, it should've gone up the chain.

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Old 08-22-2012, 07:12 PM   #28
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Weavers wife was shot by a sniper, she was holding a baby, she was no threat to anyone. What that sniper did was murder. Anyone willing to follow an order to kill an unarmed woman holding a baby is seriously f@cked up. There can be no excuses made for that.

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Old 08-22-2012, 07:27 PM   #29
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I served in the Army for over 26 years and I followed more orders than I did road maps, but everytime that I received and order and it made my "Spidey Sense" tingle, that order was either ignored, plain ole forgotten, or flat out refused and I was never punished for it.

So when someone uses the excuse of "I was just following orders" secretly wanted to follow the order in the first place. Just my opinion here.

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Old 08-22-2012, 07:53 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkt View Post
The economist Milton Friedman observed there are four ways to spend money.

1. You spend your own money on yourself. You buy the best quality you can with as little money as possible.

2. You spend your own money on someone else. You buy reasonable quality but your real focus is on saving money.

3. You spend someone else's money on yourself. You go all-out and buy the best quality without worrying about cost.

4. You spend someone else's money on someone else. You don't care at all about quality or cost.

The government always spends the fourth way.

When dealing with life and death situations, the meme stays true. Higher-ups order a kill, but they are neither the ones doing the killing nor being put in harm's way. They don't care about either killing an innocent or ending the lives of those who work for them because they don't have to care.

It is past time we put a stop to both activities - spending irresponsibly and killing irresponsibly.
So what does all this have to do with a woman, with out a gun in her hands and getting her head blown off......Remember the Alamo, Remember Ruby Ridge..........Hate begets Hate........
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