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Old 11-27-2011, 06:16 PM   #201
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Who will you be voting for?

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Old 11-27-2011, 07:46 PM   #202
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This is getting ridiculous.


This entire thread is based on an accusation of Ron Paul "going off the deep end".

I've shown that Paul wasn't "going off the deep end",but that non-interventionism as a policy is based on sound American political thought and tradition,and now you've come to the heart of your personal issues and are now attempting to aggravate and insult libertarians on this forum.

We've gone from accusations against Ron Paul,now to insulting his voting base.Billt,you don't know how many people might be willing to vote for Paul,and you DON'T speak for "all republicans" like you THINK you do.You continually cite poll statistics,like some kind of hoplophobe trying to prove that inanimate objects cause crime.
A wise man once said "there are lies,damn lies,and then there are statistics."


You don't like Ron Paul.
We get it.

I still think that the slanderous,unfounded "go off the deep end" accusation towards Ron Paul shows that this entire thread was created to demean and verbally attack the pretty strong Libertarian and Constitutional conservative streak here on this forum.

And now were going from slandering Paul and insulting his base of support,to personal insults between forum members,which can only be the logical conclusion of a thread started to incite an argument in the first place.

This thread should be locked and tossed into the oubliette of internet stupidity where it can stay in the ignominy and bleak ignorance from whence it came.

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Old 11-27-2011, 08:52 PM   #203
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Ron Paul publicly decries earmarks and pork spending while quietly offering more than many other members of Congress for his own district. He's an attention-seeking hypocrite and nothing else. His fan base is comprised mainly of teenagers and a few older nerds taking breaks from their Dungeons and Dragons games. They are easy to spot because they keep calling him "Doctor Paul", as if a past OB/GYN practice (that ultimately failed) somehow imbues him with some sort of supreme knowledge or expertise in things related to government. He's called for totally open borders in the past, understands less about foreign affairs than my dog does, and he's never managed to get a single meaningful bill passed while in Congress but his supporters continue to fawn over him, mainly, I suspect, because they hope that his candidacy will somehow result in legalized marijuana. If Ron Paul was the only candidate opposing Obama next year, I would vote for Obama just to keep Paul's brand of kooky out of the White House.

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Old 11-27-2011, 09:13 PM   #204
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Ron Paul publicly decries earmarks and pork spending while quietly offering more than many other members of Congress for his own district.
I've heard this accusation before but when I went looking for examples I didn't turn up any. Can you elaborate?

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He's an attention-seeking hypocrite and nothing else. His fan base is comprised mainly of teenagers and a few older nerds taking breaks from their Dungeons and Dragons games. They are easy to spot because they keep calling him "Doctor Paul", as if a past OB/GYN practice (that ultimately failed) somehow imbues him with some sort of supreme knowledge or expertise in things related to government.
Screw you very much. I know an awful lot of middle-aged people with families and who either run successful businesses or are gainfully employed who are acutely aware of current events who like what RP has to say. None are as you describe.

In what way did RP's practice fail and why?

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He's called for totally open borders in the past, understands less about foreign affairs than my dog does, and he's never managed to get a single meaningful bill passed while in Congress but his supporters continue to fawn over him, mainly, I suspect, because they hope that his candidacy will somehow result in legalized marijuana. If Ron Paul was the only candidate opposing Obama next year, I would vote for Obama just to keep Paul's brand of kooky out of the White House.
Have you read and do you understand the constitution? Or doesn't it matter to you?
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Old 11-27-2011, 09:15 PM   #205
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To come to billt's defense, I think what he's saying is that even though many of the things RP has to say is sound fiscally and makes sense from a constitutional perspective, RP's delivery and inability to articulate WHY he believes what he believes is a turn-off to people who have been imbued with the traditional D.C. us-versus-them mantra where neither party gives a damn about existing law. In that regard, billt is probably right. Time will tell.

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Old 11-27-2011, 09:39 PM   #206
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To come to billt's defense, I think what he's saying is that even though many of the things RP has to say is sound fiscally and makes sense from a constitutional perspective, RP's delivery and inability to articulate WHY he believes what he believes is a turn-off to people who have been imbued with the traditional D.C. us-versus-them mantra where neither party gives a damn about existing law. In that regard, billt is probably right. Time will tell.
Exactly. Even if I didn't agree with this, a great many Republican voters do.
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Old 11-27-2011, 11:59 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by bkt View Post
To come to billt's defense, I think what he's saying is that even though many of the things RP has to say is sound fiscally and makes sense from a constitutional perspective, RP's delivery and inability to articulate WHY he believes what he believes is a turn-off to people who have been imbued with the traditional D.C. us-versus-them mantra where neither party gives a damn about existing law. In that regard, billt is probably right. Time will tell.
I can get down with that.

Its highly unfortunate that Ron Paul is unable to penetrate the thick brown sludge of bull crap that comes out of the mouths of politicians simply seeking more power,and who will play any fiddle that gets them that power.

Its also unfortunate that a consistent record of voting on issues based on Constitutional principle is not more potent in todays political sphere then sound-bytes,petty scandals,and talking points.

But whats more despicable,and might even sound "conspiracy theory-ish" to some,is how said sound bytes and scandals get much more press time then discussion of actual issues.
Paul may not be getting the TIME he needs to properly expound on his ideals in the lame-stream media.
And this may,perhaps,be INTENTIONAL.

A great example of this is the mis-perception displayed quite starkly in this thread,that Paul is "going off the deep end" when he's advocating nothing as insane or radical as the principle of non-interventionism which had been a solid American political tradition up until the first half of the last century,when the progressive socialists consistently managed to get us involved in the issues of other nations with their "global" this and "global" that ideology to the point where we are literally at the polar opposite of non-interventionist policy,to the degree when we can no longer seem to make decent decisions as to WHEN its appropriate to intervene,as we intervene in almost EVERYTHING.

We SHOULD be less inclined to intervene in world affairs,and come from a perspective that we will do so if given no other choice.

Interestingly,I'm in another discussion in the forum about when its appropriate for an individual to act in self defense,and it seems as tho the state believes that we should be restricted to the barest necessity as per their regulation,yet the government itself acts almost on a whim to use force on others and claims "self defense" or rather "national security" as almost a platitude,with the assumption that its actions don't even need justification.


And the consequence of this is that we see government going even further out of bounds of the rules that bind it-

Just look at the Marxist Usurper and Libya.

NOT ONLY did he enter into military action without even so much as a ceremonial bow to congress,which BY CONSTITUTIONAL LAW and INTENTIONAL DESIGN by our Founders is given that power RATHER THEN THE EXECUTIVE-

BUT HE DID SO AT THE BEHEST OF THE UNITED NATIONS!!!!!

Believe me when I tell you Billt-
This election,ONE THING will NOT be an issue,and THAT is divisiveness among conservatives.
Most of us agree and recognize that we need to get Obuttboy OUT,and that we need to stick together on this one.From the most staunch libertarian,to the most unapologetic neocon,we should all know that either we hang together,or we shall surely hang separately.

As a philosophical political unit,we need to work together on ENDING the almost century old abuses of our Republic and our Constitution perpetrated by the evil socialist progressive scum.

THEN we can air out our own differences.
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Old 11-28-2011, 10:49 AM   #208
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I can get down with that.

Its highly unfortunate that Ron Paul is unable to penetrate the thick brown sludge of bull crap that comes out of the mouths of politicians simply seeking more power,and who will play any fiddle that gets them that power.
The problem comes down to greed and ignorance. There are some folks out there who want what their congressperson gives them but don't like the pork other congresspeople give to others. That's hypocrisy but they don't see it. The other problem is ignorance: the people don't know what the constitution says so they have no frame of reference from which to see the government is overstepping its bounds and usurping power illegally.

Plato summed it up perfectly: The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men.

The trick is to educate the electorate and have them make an informed decision. If they stick with hypocrisy, fine - things will fall apart but the electorate will have no one to blame but themselves.

Speaking of delivery, Glenn Beck drives me nucking futs when he delivers his message but he gets kudos for educating people. More people are buying books on U.S. history and learning what they were never taught in government schools than ever before and much of that is attributable to Beck's efforts.

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Its also unfortunate that a consistent record of voting on issues based on Constitutional principle is not more potent in todays political sphere then sound-bytes,petty scandals,and talking points.
The media really are the Fourth Estate/Fifth Column. They may not know it, but they are complicit in pushing an agenda that will ultimately wipe out their line of work. When people hear RP sound bites out of context, OF COURSE he sounds like a nut. That's not by accident; the media are counting on that.

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Originally Posted by KalashnikovJosh View Post
But whats more despicable,and might even sound "conspiracy theory-ish" to some,is how said sound bytes and scandals get much more press time then discussion of actual issues.
Paul may not be getting the TIME he needs to properly expound on his ideals in the lame-stream media.
And this may,perhaps,be INTENTIONAL.
Of course it is. See above.

It's not "conspiracy theory-ish" to point out how those on the right are examined under a microscope and criticized by the media and so-called "experts" constantly but those on the left get a pass every time. Look at the attention Bush and Cheney got from the media and other leftists over Halliburton and other things. Compare and contrast to what these crack investigative journalists and reporters are doing with Fast & Furious. 'Nuf said.

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Originally Posted by KalashnikovJosh View Post
A great example of this is the mis-perception displayed quite starkly in this thread,that Paul is "going off the deep end" when he's advocating nothing as insane or radical as the principle of non-interventionism which had been a solid American political tradition up until the first half of the last century,when the progressive socialists consistently managed to get us involved in the issues of other nations with their "global" this and "global" that ideology to the point where we are literally at the polar opposite of non-interventionist policy,to the degree when we can no longer seem to make decent decisions as to WHEN its appropriate to intervene,as we intervene in almost EVERYTHING.

We SHOULD be less inclined to intervene in world affairs,and come from a perspective that we will do so if given no other choice.
Sure, of course. Again, the media paint some foreign leader as an Intolerable Bad Guy[tm] and stir up angst and fear that the IBG will attack the U.S. which gives public support to exactly the sort of interventionist foreign policy that pisses everyone off and makes people hate us. Imagine if China were intervening in the affairs of our allies - or the U.S. itself - the way we intervene in other nations. Wouldn't we all hate China?

If our foreign policy were limited to and focused on trade and helping those in need after a natural disaster, there wouldn't be a lot of room for rational hatred of the U.S.

Of course, this ties in to the whole industrial military complex. The media gin up support for a war, we go in and blow the bejesus out of some nation and depose its leader, then spend years rebuilding its infrastructure and creating a new government. With a different foreign policy the industrial military complex wouldn't have a reason to exist. Certainly, not to the degree it does today.

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Originally Posted by KalashnikovJosh View Post
Interestingly,I'm in another discussion in the forum about when its appropriate for an individual to act in self defense,and it seems as tho the state believes that we should be restricted to the barest necessity as per their regulation,yet the government itself acts almost on a whim to use force on others and claims "self defense" or rather "national security" as almost a platitude,with the assumption that its actions don't even need justification.
Yes. If you think about it, the government is allowed to do things the people aren't allowed to do and these things aren't spelled out in the constitution. Obviously, individuals or states should not be able to sign treaties on behalf of the entire nation. I'm not talking about things like that. But self defense? That's precisely what 2A is about.

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Originally Posted by KalashnikovJosh View Post
And the consequence of this is that we see government going even further out of bounds of the rules that bind it-

Just look at the Marxist Usurper and Libya.
And Yemen. And soon, Syria. And Iran is the biggie waiting in the wings. As soon as the Eurozone craps out, I predict another big-ass war will come about.

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Originally Posted by KalashnikovJosh View Post
NOT ONLY did he enter into military action without even so much as a ceremonial bow to congress,which BY CONSTITUTIONAL LAW and INTENTIONAL DESIGN by our Founders is given that power RATHER THEN THE EXECUTIVE-

BUT HE DID SO AT THE BEHEST OF THE UNITED NATIONS!!!!!
Yup. And the silence from the electorate is deafening.

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Originally Posted by KalashnikovJosh View Post
Believe me when I tell you Billt-
This election,ONE THING will NOT be an issue,and THAT is divisiveness among conservatives.
Most of us agree and recognize that we need to get Obuttboy OUT,and that we need to stick together on this one.From the most staunch libertarian,to the most unapologetic neocon,we should all know that either we hang together,or we shall surely hang separately.
This is a big issue that's best left for another thread or three. Let me just say this: I won't vote for the person I believe is wrong in order to oust Obama. If enough people want him back, he'll be back. Also, the desire to oust Obama is good on its face, but the presumption that our dire economic - and more importantly, monetary - crises can be fixed is another ball o' wax entirely.

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Originally Posted by KalashnikovJosh View Post
As a philosophical political unit,we need to work together on ENDING the almost century old abuses of our Republic and our Constitution perpetrated by the evil socialist progressive scum.

THEN we can air out our own differences.
And that can only happen if the people want it to because they understand what's going on. I was walking in a mall yesterday and there was a sign in a kiosk pushing parents to help their kids with school. The sign read "Can you name three celebrities?" followed by "Can you name three of your kid's teachers?" The point was to illustrate how we pay attention to unimportant crap at the expense of ignoring important things. You could just as easily ask "Can you name three senators?" Three Supreme Court justices? Three Representatives?

RP does stick to the constitution but he has all the charisma of a rusty hinge. If he had the delivery of Ronald Reagan, we'd be in good shape. People respond to image more than they do to substance.
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Old 11-28-2011, 11:12 AM   #209
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RP does stick to the constitution but he has all the charisma of a rusty hinge. If he had the delivery of Ronald Reagan, we'd be in good shape. People respond to image more than they do to substance.
Exactly correct. You can complain about Newt Gingrich all you want. The fact remains if Ron Paul could articulate his message 1/5th as well as Gingrich does, he would be doing far better. Perception is everything. Ron Paul is perceived as an over the top, old crackpot. Yes, you can argue until the cows come home he is not. But sadly that is exactly how the man is perceived, and will be remembered by over 90% of the Republican electorate. That may be unfortunate, but that is how it is.
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Old 11-28-2011, 04:10 PM   #210
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I think I'm going to vote for Marco Rubio.

GOD SAVE THE REPUBLIC!


...and join the NRA.

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