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-   -   Question on registration (http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f97/question-registration-63053/)

kdog 04-22-2012 04:32 PM

Question on registration
 
Hi guys,

I am in a discussion with some stztange folks regarding legal ownership of firearms in the US.

Maybe you guys could pass me some input.

1. Wich firearms must be registered when puchased?
(revolvers, pistols, shotguns, etc.)

2. Can anybody let me know, how many crimes are done in the US with legaly owned firarms and with illegal firearms?
It would be great if you could give an official refference (not from the NRA, but from the FBI or so).

Ranger-6 04-22-2012 04:36 PM

In the state of Michigan all firearms from a dealer require a form to be submitted. Only handguns require a purchase permit.

JWagner 04-22-2012 05:01 PM

In Arizona there is no registration with the state. When purchasing a gun from a dealer, the buyer must fill out a form 4473 for the federal government and get a background check done via the telephone. Then you can pay for the gun and take it home. Sales between ordinary citizens have no paperwork at all.

opaww 04-22-2012 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWagner (Post 778794)
In Arizona there is no registration with the state. When purchasing a gun from a dealer, the buyer must fill out a form 4473 for the federal government and get a background check done via the telephone. Then you can pay for the gun and take it home. Sales between ordinary citizens have no paperwork at all.

Same for Kentucky

kdog 04-22-2012 05:11 PM

o.k. that kind of srewes up my day.... ;-(

I hate these flipping antis!

Jpyle 04-22-2012 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kdog (Post 778772)
Hi guys,

I am in a discussion with some stztange folks regarding legal ownership of firearms in the US.

Maybe you guys could pass me some input.

1. Wich firearms must be registered when puchased?
(revolvers, pistols, shotguns, etc.) None

2. Can anybody let me know, how many crimes are done in the US with legaly owned firarms and with illegal firearms? None, crimes are committed by criminals and criminals cannot legally own firearms :rolleyes:
It would be great if you could give an official refference (not from the NRA, but from the FBI or so).

the ten ....

Jpyle 04-22-2012 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ranger-6 (Post 778776)
In the state of Michigan all firearms from a dealer require a form to be submitted. Only handguns require a purchase permit.

All firearms, excluding BP I believe, purchased from a dealer require a NICS and a 4473, it's a federal law. There is no federal registration requirement.

c3shooter 04-22-2012 05:42 PM

Other than National Firearms Act weapons (machine guns, short barreled shotguns, etc) there is NO Federal law that requires, nor makes provision for, the registration of a firearm.

A very few states require registration of ordinary firearms. I am NOT going to attempt to summarize the gun laws of 50 states, since that is an inch and a half thick reference book.

When a firearm is purchased from a Dealer, the dealer is required to run a background check with authorities, have you provide 2 forms of ID, and fill out a Form 4473 (record of purchase) which the dealer retains at his shop for a period of 20 years. This is required by Federal law in all states.

The antis have their own agenda, which frequently has little to do with facts. Would suggest that rather than try to provide them with info, that you ask THEM for info.

Despite the fact that firearms crime has declined slightly, they will talk of the epidemic of crime. OK, so, please tell me- If there is an epidemic of drunk driving, does that mean we need to register cars?

Criminals with guns- OK- there is a FEDERAL law on the books that provides for stiff penalties for a felon ever to be found in possession of a gun. Applies in all states. But the courts have held that felons cannot be forced to register an illegal gun. Self incrimination, y'know.

Bottom line- a CRIMINAL is defined as one who breaks the law. If they will break a law that forbids murder, robbery, rape- does that mean they will not break a law that says they cannot have a gun?

Do they feel that you can regulate BEHAVIOR by regulating THINGS? How well has that worked for drugs? Did it work for alcohol during prohibition?

The mantra has been to "Keep guns out of the wrong hands". OK, in the past, those "wrong hands" have been recent immigrants (Irish), Blacks, American Indians, etc. Look up history of gun control laws. Why do the antis not feel ashamed of their racist behavior?

Trying to argue facts to an anti is like mud wrestling with a pig- it wastes your time, and the pig enjoys it.

wjnfirearms 04-22-2012 06:06 PM

The term "registration" is not entirely correct since there is no Federal law to register firearms. This is pretty common. I guess you could loosely say that it's registration after all in a sense. Many consider just the act of putting pen to paper making a record on an official form of the purchase/transfer registration. They may not be entirely wrong.

Some states require sending info on purchases to some authority in the state of purchase. Here in Pennsylvania, if you buy a handgun, you also have to do a PSP Form 4-113 and send it to the Pennsylvania State Police Firearms Division for documentation of purchase. Since Pennsylvania has made themselves a "Point-of Contact" state, this is the predisposing reason for the form, right or wrong. In all states, the 4473 stays with the selling/transferring dealer until such a time that he/she closes business permanently and then they go to ATF for long term storage. The only other paperwork that may go to ATF is the form that must be filled out for multiple sales of handguns. If you buy two or more either at the same time or with the dealer's knowledge within a two week consecutive time frame, this form must be filled out and sent to them. Long guns are excluded. This form, personally, I don't like, but we have little choice but to send it in. If during an ATF audit inspection, two or more handgun 4473s are discovered in the aforementioned time frame to the same buyer and we cannot show our copy of the reporting form, it is a direct violation of our FFL. Nice, huh?

The one thing that is nice here in the Keystone is that there is a law that there is no requirement to do any paperwork on sales or transfers of long guns to anyone 18 or over. The 4473 can be legally forgotten to do along with the Insta-Check. This is why you see so many rifles for sale at flea markets, etc. If you buy a rifle or shotgun of any kind (short barreled rifles excluded) from a private owner or dealer, you can legally refuse to do the 4473 and check and the sale has to still go on. Now, a dealer could say that he insists on doing the paperwork and form, but it would be a shop policy, not law. He may feel that it's his way of protecting his ass. Just taking a copy of the picture ID would suffice here if one felt that strongly about that and would be within his rights to do so. I've only had one client refuse to do the paperwork for a transfer of a WWII vintage rifle. I didn't push the issue. He was within his rights.

The ATF does maintain the right to inquire about any given purchase to any dealer for cause. This has happened to me on two occassions and I was obligated to comply. I will give them this, however. They were forthright on both occassions without any hassles about the reasons for the inquiries and both times, were justified in my opinion. Once, a lower I sold was used in the commission of a crime in Texas. They were looking for straw purchases during the ownership trail of the weapon in question. The other, the San Diego field office was investigating the questionable sales activity of a supplier I was using. I had issues with the same supplier and had heard some disturbing things about them through the manufacturer of what I was buying, so I wasn't surprised by the call. I had stopped dealing with the supplier long before the call I received.

We only need one form of picture ID here, c3. As always, though, you are an eloquent gentleman.

bkt 04-22-2012 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kdog (Post 778807)
o.k. that kind of srewes up my day.... ;-(

I hate these flipping antis!

Depending on what you read and from whom, somewhere between 5% and 0.5% (half of one percent) of crimes involving a firearm occur with a legally-owned firearm used by its owner. The FBI has all kinds of stats on various crimes in their Uniform Crimes Report but it requires a lot of digging to determine whether firearms were used in robberies, burglaries, rapes, arsons, carjackings, etc. as well as (attempted) homicides. Google around and you'll probably find a reputable source with some useful stats. Also, check out the books "More Guns, Less Crime" and the "The Bias Against Guns".

Why does the info provided so far screw up your day?

Apart from Class III stuff, the feds don't register anything. Some states may or may not require registration of some/any/all firearms.

The most significant point is this: there are several tens of millions of legally owned firearms that are not used in crimes. If easy access to firearms were really the problem antis seem to think it is, we'd all be dead by now.


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