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Old 11-21-2012, 01:49 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by pagj17
They are also still required to be serialized and the state notified of the serial in California
You sure about that?
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Old 11-21-2012, 03:46 AM   #12
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Pure. Genius.
Ima buy a Mazak mega mill and a few hundred tons of aluminum bar stock.
Who wants to push the green button?

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Old 11-21-2012, 04:12 AM   #13
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Please note- as with MOST news articles about firearms- this is misleading. First, the shop cannot be making the recievers for you. They would need to have a Mfgr's FFL, do a Form 4473 for each transfer, etc. Their customers use their machine tools under their guidance.

Second- what makes an unserialized fiearm "untraceable"? I had 2 gun safes full of guns that had never worn a serial number- it was not required for rifles and shotguns until the 1968 Gun Control Act. That was before that HORRIBLE boating accident. You can dang sure do a ballistics match on those.

The setup the shop has- permitting the serious hobbyist to have access to their machines during slack days does sound like a good deal. Little Bobby Gangbanger is not going to be devoting serious time, attention and money to a build, and the 14 yr olds get screened out. I COULD build a reciever from scratch with a 1960s vintage Bridgeport miller- with a LOT time time for setup- and the accuracy of the finished product would be less that the computer controlled mill. As I said- good deal.

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Old 11-21-2012, 10:31 AM   #14
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It would be my guess that the BATFE will shut down the operation. It could be argued that no matter who started the machine, that the machine shop was actually making these receivers illegally.

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Old 11-21-2012, 01:17 PM   #15
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You can buy an 80% lower and do the same thing yourself with a drill press and a few clamps.

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Old 11-24-2012, 11:19 AM   #16
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A friend of mine is a Tool and die maker from old school, he can spin a block of metal into a sweater with his old mills if he chooses. When I ask him to make something for me, his first question is always tolerance, he works 8 digits to the right of the decimal point hungover and half blind, ive seen him 10 to 12 places right of it consistently! Where we work, they refer to him as a Machinist but thats like calling a diamond cutter a coal miner, not even close to the same animal.

We were chatting a couple days ago and he laughed that most gunsmiths were less than the most accurate machinists he had ever met, said most work by carpenters specs not Toolmakers, diff between an inch and a mile. He joked that the proof was in the fact that many weapons couldnt interchange parts because they werent made to a spec close enough to do so!

I love the Idea of this shop, unfortunately, your not gonna learn much from watching a CNC and most of the operators are primarily computer weenies nowadays, dont give them a Vertical mill and a block of steel, they will just look at you silly and go on break! The old America actually had such a huge quantity of very qualified toolmakers that banning anything just created a whole new industry but they are a dying breed.

Watch an old Toolmaker work for awhile, its mesmerizing! Just dont touch anything in the room or suggest anything or expect a smackdown!

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Old 11-24-2012, 12:45 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WebleyFosbery38 View Post
A friend of mine is a Tool and die maker from old school, he can spin a block of metal into a sweater with his old mills if he chooses. When I ask him to make something for me, his first question is always tolerance, he works 8 digits to the right of the decimal point hungover and half blind, ive seen him 10 to 12 places right of it consistently! Where we work, they refer to him as a Machinist but thats like calling a diamond cutter a coal miner, not even close to the same animal.

We were chatting a couple days ago and he laughed that most gunsmiths were less than the most accurate machinists he had ever met, said most work by carpenters specs not Toolmakers, diff between an inch and a mile. He joked that the proof was in the fact that many weapons couldnt interchange parts because they werent made to a spec close enough to do so!

I love the Idea of this shop, unfortunately, your not gonna learn much from watching a CNC and most of the operators are primarily computer weenies nowadays, dont give them a Vertical mill and a block of steel, they will just look at you silly and go on break! The old America actually had such a huge quantity of very qualified toolmakers that banning anything just created a whole new industry but they are a dying breed.

Watch an old Toolmaker work for awhile, its mesmerizing! Just dont touch anything in the room or suggest anything or expect a smackdown!
I agree. Much the same can be said of most "gunsmiths" today. In my region, most Smith's are "parts changers" who have little formal training, and even less skills. I only know one true Master Gunsmith, and he is in his 80s.
When he is gone there will be no one to replace him.

Not many young people wants to spend years of an apprenticeship to learn a skilled trade, and many skilled trades can't be learned out of a book or off a computer screen. This is not to say that books are not necessary in the teaching of skilled trades, they are. Some skills require things books can't provide; touch for instance.
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Old 11-25-2012, 02:14 PM   #18
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I agree. Much the same can be said of most "gunsmiths" today. In my region, most Smith's are "parts changers" who have little formal training, and even less skills. I only know one true Master Gunsmith, and he is in his 80s.
When he is gone there will be no one to replace him.

Not many young people wants to spend years of an apprenticeship to learn a skilled trade, and many skilled trades can't be learned out of a book or off a computer screen. This is not to say that books are not necessary in the teaching of skilled trades, they are. Some skills require things books can't provide; touch for instance.
Unfortunately, sometimes the 'smiths of any trade, be it gunsmith or blacksmith, are the victims of their own stinginess. Many are so afraid of having to compete with their own apprentice someday that they will not take anyone in and show them the ropes, therefore their tradecraft becomes the perpetrator of its own demise. This is why we see idiots like Sons of Guns and American Guns thrive. They have some gunsmithing skills, but they are increasingly reliant on CNC, which isn't a bad tool when complemented with true gunsmithing skills. We have nobody in a small shop turning out guns (or much else) anymore.
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Old 11-25-2012, 02:31 PM   #19
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The gubermint will find a way to shut it down, sadly.
Oh yeah, quite agree, as when Obama promised not to interfere with state law about medicinal marijuana shops, and then along with Eric Holder, had not only shut down the shops in California but had the DEA bust up the place so as to leave it inoperable.
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Old 11-25-2012, 03:46 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by c3shooter View Post
Please note- as with MOST news articles about firearms- this is misleading. First, the shop cannot be making the recievers for you. They would need to have a Mfgr's FFL, do a Form 4473 for each transfer, etc. Their customers use their machine tools under their guidance.

Second- what makes an unserialized fiearm "untraceable"? I had 2 gun safes full of guns that had never worn a serial number- it was not required for rifles and shotguns until the 1968 Gun Control Act. That was before that HORRIBLE boating accident. You can dang sure do a ballistics match on those.

The setup the shop has- permitting the serious hobbyist to have access to their machines during slack days does sound like a good deal. Little Bobby Gangbanger is not going to be devoting serious time, attention and money to a build, and the 14 yr olds get screened out. I COULD build a reciever from scratch with a 1960s vintage Bridgeport miller- with a LOT time time for setup- and the accuracy of the finished product would be less that the computer controlled mill. As I said- good deal.
I have leased my tools to people for short term purposes. I have an agreement so I am not responsible for their safety or what they make. This can be worked out so this shop could lease this tool to each person and each person could make their own firearm.
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