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Old 04-18-2011, 10:53 PM   #21
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Doesn't it seem funny how, as much as we hated prior administrations,

nobody's gotten much concerned about a face-off

with the fed over our guns until THIS administration...

...now we're starting to all get our hackles up and

our feathers ruffled, aren't we?

I can't help feeling we'd serve ourselves better, if we had

a NRA enrollment of 60 million, rather than 6 million.

Talk to your friends about joining the NRA, because it serves

no one to merely have fruitless discussions with antis.

The fed needs to see us as a determined block of RKBA

voters. They have no respect for the NRA, because

it simply doesn't have the clout it should in force of

membership numbers.

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Old 04-19-2011, 05:29 AM   #22
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Here I go again!!
This entire thing, the problems we ALL face, doesn't fall on the NRA or the liberals or the conservatives, it all falls on every citizen of this country, past and present. I have been comparing it to "creeping sharia". I am calling it "creeping forgetting America". Granted the liberal left WANTS to take away as many freedoms as they can, this way more people are dependent on the government for their existence. But the fact is, we let it happen. All the way back to the Roosevelts and Wilson, the progressive government has been grooming the citizens to give up their rights. A little here, a little there, not too much, we won't get all riled up. And when not given much thought, it looks like it's a good thing, makes things safer, helps people who need help, doesn't affect me etc.
The patriot act is just another in a long line, folks said, "well, if it will help to prevent another 9/11 type attack, then ok", when, IMO, it has NOTHING to do with "fighting terrorism", (that in itself is a stupid phrase). And gives the government more power/control over it citizens.
Our government has gotten so big it cannot bring in enough taxes to pay for its own operating costs, let alone all of the "programs"! I would have to guess that at least(and this is a conservative guess) 80% of the federal laws on the books could be judged unconstitutional. Most of the agencies, bureaus, departments, committees, sub-committees, etc etc ad nauseum, should also be deemed unconstitutional. If the government operated strictly within the laws and restrictions of the Constitution, we would, I am certain, be a THRIVING nation, with plenty of money in surplus government budget, a strong industry with very very little unemployment, great health care at ridiculously low rates, and a strong, independent, self-sufficient,WELL ARMED citizenry.
It should be obvious to any who can actually think, that our government cannot do ANYTHING WELL or efficiently. All they do is WASTE our money on NOTHING!! They make "laws" to protect us from ourselves and turn otherwise normal folks into criminals, making us fear "breaking the law"! I understand we need laws, but NO LAW should EVER be passed without surviving extreme scrutiny as to its Constitutionality. After all, our electorate is SWORN to uphold the Constitution!
They NEED to keep us afraid, and dependent on them, this is how they maintain control and power, through FEAR!! Think about it, when one "crisis/catastrophe/disaster" goes away, another one pops up.
We are "Forgetting America", what it really means to be free, and THIS is where we are losing ourselves. Most of us on this fantastic forum are basically conservative, many would like to see smaller government and lower taxes, and a return of individual responsibility. I would suggest we work to enlighten the younger folks about "Being American". Understand the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, what governments job REALLY is, and hope for the best, because the kids today will decide the future!

I know that was long as hell, and probably not in the right place, but I wanted to get that out of my system!! Maybe I'll write a book, that should keep me busy!!
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The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first. Thomas Jefferson
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Old 04-19-2011, 03:38 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pandamonium View Post
Here I go again!!
This entire thing, the problems we ALL face, doesn't fall on the NRA or the liberals or the conservatives, it all falls on every citizen of this country, past and present. I have been comparing it to "creeping sharia". I am calling it "creeping forgetting America". Granted the liberal left WANTS to take away as many freedoms as they can, this way more people are dependent on the government for their existence. But the fact is, we let it happen. All the way back to the Roosevelts and Wilson, the progressive government has been grooming the citizens to give up their rights. A little here, a little there, not too much, we won't get all riled up. And when not given much thought, it looks like it's a good thing, makes things safer, helps people who need help, doesn't affect me etc.
The patriot act is just another in a long line, folks said, "well, if it will help to prevent another 9/11 type attack, then ok", when, IMO, it has NOTHING to do with "fighting terrorism", (that in itself is a stupid phrase). And gives the government more power/control over it citizens.
Our government has gotten so big it cannot bring in enough taxes to pay for its own operating costs, let alone all of the "programs"! I would have to guess that at least(and this is a conservative guess) 80% of the federal laws on the books could be judged unconstitutional. Most of the agencies, bureaus, departments, committees, sub-committees, etc etc ad nauseum, should also be deemed unconstitutional. If the government operated strictly within the laws and restrictions of the Constitution, we would, I am certain, be a THRIVING nation, with plenty of money in surplus government budget, a strong industry with very very little unemployment, great health care at ridiculously low rates, and a strong, independent, self-sufficient,WELL ARMED citizenry.
It should be obvious to any who can actually think, that our government cannot do ANYTHING WELL or efficiently. All they do is WASTE our money on NOTHING!! They make "laws" to protect us from ourselves and turn otherwise normal folks into criminals, making us fear "breaking the law"! I understand we need laws, but NO LAW should EVER be passed without surviving extreme scrutiny as to its Constitutionality. After all, our electorate is SWORN to uphold the Constitution!
They NEED to keep us afraid, and dependent on them, this is how they maintain control and power, through FEAR!! Think about it, when one "crisis/catastrophe/disaster" goes away, another one pops up.
We are "Forgetting America", what it really means to be free, and THIS is where we are losing ourselves. Most of us on this fantastic forum are basically conservative, many would like to see smaller government and lower taxes, and a return of individual responsibility. I would suggest we work to enlighten the younger folks about "Being American". Understand the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, what governments job REALLY is, and hope for the best, because the kids today will decide the future!

I know that was long as hell, and probably not in the right place, but I wanted to get that out of my system!! Maybe I'll write a book, that should keep me busy!!
ABSOLUTELY!

Not only have Americans forgotten HOW to be Americans, our

politicians have forgotten US.

Now if they see us as a unified front, which the NRA COULD BE,

IF it had 10 TIMES the membership it does now, perhaps

we could jog the thieves in Washington's memories...
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Old 04-19-2011, 04:23 PM   #24
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People naturally forget things, including their own history. A society must make efforts to teach those things to kids - not jingoistic nationalist, just the facts. Otherwise, you get what we've got.

Well said, panda.

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Old 04-19-2011, 04:52 PM   #25
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^^^^^Thank You sir.^^^^^

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The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first. Thomas Jefferson
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Old 04-28-2011, 12:24 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by pandamonium View Post
Here I go again!!
This entire thing, the problems we ALL face, doesn't fall on the NRA or the liberals or the conservatives, it all falls on every citizen of this country, past and present. Granted the liberal left WANTS to take away as many freedoms as they can, this way more people are dependent on the government for their existence. All the way back to the Roosevelts and Wilson, the progressive government has been grooming the citizens to give up their rights. A little here, a little there, not too much, we won't get all riled up. And when not given much thought, it looks like it's a good thing, makes things safer, helps people who need help, doesn't affect me etc.

Pandamonium, can you give me some examples of rights that the Left has taken away?

I think your discussion on grooming people to be dependent on the government is interesting and in some ways I completely agree with it. However, I see cuts in education, libraries and to a lesser extent Public Broadcasting as a way the government is trying to make it more difficult to get information that allows us to see different sides of an event. If people aren't educated to be free thinkers, don't know about 'reading between the lines' and are only exposed to the crap on TV, we will have a nation of zombies (except not the fun kind that you gun owners can shoot) who will be supporting the upper class and not thinking anything of it.
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Old 04-28-2011, 04:03 AM   #27
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Pandamonium, can you give me some examples of rights that the Left has taken away?
The word I used in my post is "freedoms", Many many of our freedoms have been legislated away in the name of "making it safer" for society. There is another thread in this Legal and Activism forum about Feds raiding stores for illegal Kinder Easter eggs, that is a perfect example of a freedom taken away for the sake of "safety", or our elected officials thinking that we are just too stupid to know right from wrong. How about choice? Why should it be a law to wear a seatbelt while driving your car? How about helmet laws? These laws dumb down society, and condition people to think that the government knows what is best for you. "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely". I don't know who said it but there ya go! As soon as the federal government got into the business of education, thay had say in what and how students are taught. Many Liberal ideals are pushed on our children in school. This, IMO, is where it is starting.

As far as rights being taken away, how about the National Firearms Act of 1939, or the Gun Control Act of 1968? Both of these Acts are blatant and obvious infringements on our Second Amendment. Period. I ask you this, why is the 2A the ONLY Right that is constantly being chewed away at? IMO, it is because as long as we have the Second Amendment, those who would like to take away ALL of our rights, balk at trying to do so to an armed populace! This is one of the main reasons we HAVE the Second Amendment!!

A couple of quotes from Thomas Jefferson.



The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.

“Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.”

The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it.

The policy of the American government is to leave their citizens free, neither restraining nor aiding them in their pursuits.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive.

Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want bread.

God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty.... And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.

As you can tell, TJ is my Framer Hero!! The fourth quote applies to this discussion.

Our government wasn't designed to regulate every aspect of our day to day lives, we are supposed to flourish with the freedom to succeed or fail as would happen. As a FREE PEOPLE!!! Not a subject under the thumb of the government.

Did I get carried away again, that seems to happen...
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The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first. Thomas Jefferson
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Old 04-28-2011, 01:33 PM   #28
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The word I used in my post is "freedoms", Many many of our freedoms have been legislated away in the name of "making it safer" for society. There is another thread in this Legal and Activism forum about Feds raiding stores for illegal Kinder Easter eggs, that is a perfect example of a freedom taken away for the sake of "safety", or our elected officials thinking that we are just too stupid to know right from wrong. How about choice? Why should it be a law to wear a seatbelt while driving your car? How about helmet laws? These laws dumb down society, and condition people to think that the government knows what is best for you. "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely". I don't know who said it but there ya go! As soon as the federal government got into the business of education, thay had say in what and how students are taught. Many Liberal ideals are pushed on our children in school. This, IMO, is where it is starting.

As far as rights being taken away, how about the National Firearms Act of 1939, or the Gun Control Act of 1968? Both of these Acts are blatant and obvious infringements on our Second Amendment.
While I cannot disagree with your underlying premise, this is not an exclusively liberal phenomenon. Nor is it even principally liberal. The helmet and seatbelt laws are State laws passed in equal proportion by Republican and Democratic state congresses. Yes, the feds held purse strings as leverage, but our State governments sold us out for a few alms and both parties are equally guilty. (btw, I support those laws but not how they came into affect.)

As a former business owner with 500 employees, I can tell you from personal experience that my liberties as an investor and employer were under constant attack regardless of which party was in power. Reagan's Tax Simplification Act of 1986 was a broad-ranging attack on real property rights and effectively confiscated vast wealth via radically increased taxation, so much so that it precipitated the S&L collapse 3 years later (an entirely foreseeable event that escaped those great Republican minds in DC).

And it's hardly true that the 2nd Amendment is the only freedom under attack, it's just the one you're most sensitive too (and for good reason). Did you forget the Japanese internment of WWII? There's little modern debate that this was both unconstitutional and unneeded (and a Democrat's ridiculous idea). Or President Bush - the two Patriot Acts were the farthest-reaching attack on Constitutional freedoms in many decades. The Conservatives, far more than the liberals, prefer a police state with broad powers for the state and limited powers for those accused of wrongdoing (wrongly or not). Yes, modern criminal rights have gone too far, but the other direction is at least as dangerous.

Both parties attack personal freedoms. To the extent we lose sight of this, we give "our" party permission to continue to do so.
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Old 04-28-2011, 01:54 PM   #29
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Absolutely right. Today the first amendment and second amendment are under grave threat, as well as other parts of the Constitution that "guarantee" our freedoms. You can't defend your life or the lives of your loved ones, you can't criticize the enemy who is out to destroy your life and liberty. There is no privacy any more, with your cell phone generating a permanent record of your location at any and all times; if you use a debit or credit card to buy gas on a trip the location and time are recorded. And Constitution or no Constitution our rights are God-given. They are not "granted" by the Constitution, they are only enforced by it. The polititians who daily enact laws limiting our freedom always make sure that they personally are exempt from having to abide by them.
But the power-and-wealth obsessed clowns who get into government have this fantasy that the people they rob to have their power and wealth "admire" them. The only way we have to deal with it is to kick them out of office.

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Old 04-28-2011, 04:21 PM   #30
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While I cannot disagree with your underlying premise, this is not an exclusively liberal phenomenon. Nor is it even principally liberal. The helmet and seatbelt laws are State laws passed in equal proportion by Republican and Democratic state congresses. Yes, the feds held purse strings as leverage, but our State governments sold us out for a few alms and both parties are equally guilty. (btw, I support those laws but not how they came into affect.)
Both parties attack personal freedoms. To the extent we lose sight of this, we give "our" party permission to continue to do so.
Keep in mind that just being Republican or democrat does not mean that you/they are liberal or conservative, progressive may be a better name for those who would deny us our rights to protect us from ourselves.
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The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first. Thomas Jefferson
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